Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:08 pm

aniym wrote:If you stop by the Utd forums, you'll see that the posters rarely compare the records of LVG to Mourinho, or Mou to OGS these days. They would do that all the time a couple of years ago.

They're on the 4th manager post-SAF so enough time has passed for them to understand that no manager comes in with a slate wiped clean of problems. They're responsible for what happens on match day, but they still have to deal with the realities of the situation as they found it.

Emery had to deal with:
-- a non-existent defense, besides getting Sokratis to replace injured Kos
-- Ozil's drop in form, and no creative replacement with Cazorla and Wilsh being released. Mhikytaryan not good enough at PL level.
-- No wide attacker. Welbeck did OK the first few games in that role, then with the inevitable injury, Iwobi took his place.

The next season:
-- Ramsey, Iwobi, Monreal, Mhikytaryan, Koscielny all gone -- nearly 50% of our starting XI
-- LB that signed injured, and rarely played by the time he got the sack
-- Trying to fit Pepe into the team when he likely had a clearer plan for Zaha

Arteta has to deal with:
-- Dreadful, no-confidence football from Xhaka, Luiz and Mustafi
-- No creative CM
-- Massive drop in form for Lacazette (his G+A were crucial to our 18/19 season)

The next guy will face the problems created during Arteta's tenure:
-- What to do with Guendouzi when he returns
-- Possible Auba performance downturn
-- Uncertainty around contracts for Pepe, Saliba, Martinelli and AMN (players that Arteta doesn't seem to rate)

Emery chose to release all those creative players we had and fill them with dross like Guendozi, Torreira, Suarez, Lichtensteiner etc. I have no sympathy for him.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby EliteKiller » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:38 pm

For all the "blame" on previous managers, all the guesswork on what a change in job title means, and all the speculating on who inherited what there is a bottom line ... do we look a better squad under Arteta in 2020 than we have done in the last three seasons? as fans do we have more hope and expectation for a title challenge, for a top four finish, or even top six?

As we look forward can we see the positive evolution in our squad or is it still a broken mess?

Has Arteta in nearly a year made any difference? if so what has he done that's good, not so good?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:04 am

Midfields matter. The game is played in midfield. If only 4 of your 25 man squad are midfielders and only 1-2 are quality, then you are in big trouble. When you create chances it relieves the pressure, it lifts the team and gives you a shot at winning points.

We cringed when Wenger kept buying central midfielders but they kept us in the top four even when chamakh and bendy were leading the line.

We have our best attack in years, and are best defenders in year but are sitting in the bottom half because we hollowed out our midfield. We need to quickly move to a 3 man midfield. Buy Aoruar and Szoboslai and partner them with Partey. Put Saka in the front line with instructions to drop into midfield when needed. Shore up the midfield and start moving up the table.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby gamechannel » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:05 am

EliteKiller wrote:For all the "blame" on previous managers, all the guesswork on what a change in job title means, and all the speculating on who inherited what there is a bottom line ... do we look a better squad under Arteta in 2020 than we have done in the last three seasons? as fans do we have more hope and expectation for a title challenge, for a top four finish, or even top six?

As we look forward can we see the positive evolution in our squad or is it still a broken mess?

Has Arteta in nearly a year made any difference? if so what has he done that's good, not so good?


There's absolutely no cohesion in the team these days. It all seems like a bunch of players playing in the same team as opposed to a team playing together. Its robotic. Its laborious. Players with cohesion can telegraph the other players' movements and link up accordingly. Our structure is so rigid that there doesn't seem to be any real connection between the players on the pitch.

We may look like a better squad under Arteta but we don't look like a better team.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby DiamondGooner » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:28 am

swipe right wrote:Midfields matter. The game is played in midfield. If only 4 of your 25 man squad are midfielders and only 1-2 are quality, then you are in big trouble. When you create chances it relieves the pressure, it lifts the team and gives you a shot at winning points.

We cringed when Wenger kept buying central midfielders but they kept us in the top four even when chamakh and bendy were leading the line.

We have our best attack in years, and are best defenders in year but are sitting in the bottom half because we hollowed out our midfield. We need to quickly move to a 3 man midfield. Buy Aoruar and Szoboslai and partner them with Partey. Put Saka in the front line with instructions to drop into midfield when needed. Shore up the midfield and start moving up the table.


Midfields only matter if you have midfielders and if you model your game on it.

We could / should be modelling our game on what we have right now, defense, offense, just like Atletico do.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:48 am

DiamondGooner wrote:
swipe right wrote:Midfields matter. The game is played in midfield. If only 4 of your 25 man squad are midfielders and only 1-2 are quality, then you are in big trouble. When you create chances it relieves the pressure, it lifts the team and gives you a shot at winning points.

We cringed when Wenger kept buying central midfielders but they kept us in the top four even when chamakh and bendy were leading the line.

We have our best attack in years, and are best defenders in year but are sitting in the bottom half because we hollowed out our midfield. We need to quickly move to a 3 man midfield. Buy Aoruar and Szoboslai and partner them with Partey. Put Saka in the front line with instructions to drop into midfield when needed. Shore up the midfield and start moving up the table.


Midfields only matter if you have midfielders and if you model your game on it.

We could / should be modelling our game on what we have right now, defense, offense, just like Atletico do.

ROFLMAO. Have you seen Atletico’s midfield strength?
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby LMAO » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:38 am

swipe right wrote:
DiamondGooner wrote:
swipe right wrote:Midfields matter. The game is played in midfield. If only 4 of your 25 man squad are midfielders and only 1-2 are quality, then you are in big trouble. When you create chances it relieves the pressure, it lifts the team and gives you a shot at winning points.

We cringed when Wenger kept buying central midfielders but they kept us in the top four even when chamakh and bendy were leading the line.

We have our best attack in years, and are best defenders in year but are sitting in the bottom half because we hollowed out our midfield. We need to quickly move to a 3 man midfield. Buy Aoruar and Szoboslai and partner them with Partey. Put Saka in the front line with instructions to drop into midfield when needed. Shore up the midfield and start moving up the table.


Midfields only matter if you have midfielders and if you model your game on it.

We could / should be modelling our game on what we have right now, defense, offense, just like Atletico do.

ROFLMAO. Have you seen Atletico’s midfield strength?


Saul, Koke, and Llorente are effing quality, and even Torreira, Herrera, and Kondogbia are good options to have, especially for La Liga.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Dejan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:21 am

Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby KG3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:59 am

swipe right wrote:
aniym wrote:If you stop by the Utd forums, you'll see that the posters rarely compare the records of LVG to Mourinho, or Mou to OGS these days. They would do that all the time a couple of years ago.

They're on the 4th manager post-SAF so enough time has passed for them to understand that no manager comes in with a slate wiped clean of problems. They're responsible for what happens on match day, but they still have to deal with the realities of the situation as they found it.

Emery had to deal with:
-- a non-existent defense, besides getting Sokratis to replace injured Kos
-- Ozil's drop in form, and no creative replacement with Cazorla and Wilsh being released. Mhikytaryan not good enough at PL level.
-- No wide attacker. Welbeck did OK the first few games in that role, then with the inevitable injury, Iwobi took his place.

The next season:
-- Ramsey, Iwobi, Monreal, Mhikytaryan, Koscielny all gone -- nearly 50% of our starting XI
-- LB that signed injured, and rarely played by the time he got the sack
-- Trying to fit Pepe into the team when he likely had a clearer plan for Zaha

Arteta has to deal with:
-- Dreadful, no-confidence football from Xhaka, Luiz and Mustafi
-- No creative CM
-- Massive drop in form for Lacazette (his G+A were crucial to our 18/19 season)

The next guy will face the problems created during Arteta's tenure:
-- What to do with Guendouzi when he returns
-- Possible Auba performance downturn
-- Uncertainty around contracts for Pepe, Saliba, Martinelli and AMN (players that Arteta doesn't seem to rate)

Emery chose to release all those creative players we had and fill them with dross like Guendozi, Torreira, Suarez, Lichtensteiner etc. I have no sympathy for him.


Don’t think you blame emery for Cazorla, Wilshere departures he was never in charge of contract negotiations as seen with the Ramsey saga.

When it comes to signings he didn’t have a big say either the guy wanted Zaha, Fabinho and Nkunku and we have him Pepe, Torreria, Guendouzi.

I wasn’t a big fan of emery but the one thing you can’t slate him for is transfers incoming and outgoing, he was never included in those big decisions at best he could ask and advise.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby KG3 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:01 am

Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Özim » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:58 am

KG3 wrote:
Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette


If players have regressed it's down to Arteta and the system he plays to be honest, he could have kept Martinez but sold him and kept Leno, he's got AMN he never plays so Bellerin is the regular, Laca has to chase back in midfield rather than stay up front as well.

All down to Arteta, he definitely has a better squad though.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Dejan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:19 am

KG3 wrote:
Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette


Partey and especially gabriel is a huge boost.

Leno and lacazette regressed, or you can say that Emery just got more our of them? Especially since our attacks were much better than they were now, as the figures also say.

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Dejan » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:19 am

Özim wrote:
KG3 wrote:
Dejan wrote:
Angelito wrote:Arteta has been in charge for 28 league games now. 10 more games and that'd be a season for him.

After 28 games, If we compare his record to Unai:

EMERY
Won: 17
Drawn: 5
Lost: 6
----
Scored: 59 goals
Conceded: 38 games
----
PPG: 2.0

ARTETA
Won: 13
Drawn: 6
Lost: 9
----
Scored: 41 goals
Conceded: 31 goals
----
PPG: 1.61

Now, there are mitigating factors here:

- Emery took over from Wengerball, so scoring would never have been an issue;
- Emery oversaw a terrific run of games that didn't see us lose in the league for 14 games;
- Arteta took over from Emery and Raul's chaos mid-season, so he obviously wouldn't be performing at that standard;
- In Klopp's first full season, Rodgers and Klopp's returns were identical. Klopp needed time to bring Liverpool into his groove.

Having said that, Emery was Head Coach here. Klopp is Manager at Liverpool. Arteta was promoted to Manager of Arsenal before 20/21.

Now, if we compare their last 10 games:

Emery won 2, drew 6, and lost 2. Arteta has won 5, lost 5, drawn absolutely none. So in defense of San Mikel, he took over in an absolutely tepid condition at Arsenal.

In the same timeframe, we have scored only 12 goals and have conceded 12 goals so far. In Unai's final 10 games, we scored 17 goals and conceded 15 goals. So, Arteta obviously has done well in his last 10 games with 5 wins compared to Unai's 2 wins. The tricky part is Arteta's Arsenal having a GD of 0, while Unai having a GD of +2.

Moreover, the concerning issue is how we have scored less in Arteta's last 10 games than in Unai's final 10 games despite Unai being known as a pragmatic manager/coach. We've also lost more games in Mikel's last 10 outings.

Personally, I'm willing to wait until January/February. Until Matchday 8, we notched 19 points in 16/17 and 13 in 17/18. So far, we have 12 points, which is the worse than 19/20 at the same stage. In fact, under Unai, we were 8th with 18 points at this stage last season. A PPG of 1.38. Under Arteta, we have a PPG of exactly 1.4.

Will be interesting how we fare after Leeds. We have Wolves, Spurs away, Burnley, Southampton, and Everton away. 10/15 points is the absolute minimum I expect. If we are to challenge for UCL places, we need 12/15 points.

Interesting times ahead.
You forgot to add the fact that arteta has now a much better squad too.

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I wouldn’t really say it’s much better it’s bascially the same squad + Partey, Gabriel but certain players have regressed Leno, Bellerin and Lacazette


If players have regressed it's down to Arteta and the system he plays to be honest, he could have kept Martinez but sold him and kept Leno, he's got AMN he never plays so Bellerin is the regular, Laca has to chase back in midfield rather than stay up front as well.

All down to Arteta, he definitely has a better squad though.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby theHotHead » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:33 pm

Completely agree. Both managers/coaches made key decisions that have affected the team.

Interesting point DG made about Arteta not aticking to one thing, its interesting to me because if a manager goes to a club and has an idea or ideal way to play but doesn't have the players to carry it out, what should they do? Play the system irrespective or play a system better suited to the players he has, and, over time, morphing the system into the one he ideally wants, once the players are brought in ?

I can see merits to both processes, my gut tells me we should pick a system that makes us defensively sound anbd allows for a coherrent attack then with the addition of players and over time develop it into the ideal solution. This being rigid thing won't work.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:38 pm

Arteta’s job will be in jeopardy if we are still in the lower half at the turn of the year.
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