Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:21 pm

theHotHead wrote:
swipe right wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
KG3 wrote:You don’t know that until they get a run of games though, some of them may hit the ground running like Fabregas and Martinelli or they could turn out to be slow learners like Song and Fabianski or they may turn out bad like Senderos and Bendtner. The fact is we won’t know until we actually play them, I’m not saying they should start in the prem but surely these guys should be getting minutes against Europa league teams and some cup games, if they excel in those games then play them in the league.

We do know, they have had a run of games, its the reason Martinelli and Saka are lauded by fans and why they get the games.

Slow learners ? Neither song or Fabianski had any place playing for the Arsenal first team, they were shit ! Song was appalling, Fabianski improved and finally looks like a decent keeper at West Ham, but look how long that took, are you suggesting we persist with kids for 7-10 years ?? Get real.

Look at Arsenal since Wenger, how many kids did we develop that you would call an absolute asset ? If I am being generous I will say Cole, Clichy, Ramsey, Walcott, Fabregas, Anelka, RVP, Bellerin, Wilshere. If I am honest and include those players that were developed by Arsenal that list becomes Cole, Clichy, Ramsey, Walcott, Bellerin, Wilshere. If I remove the generosity I spoke of earlier - by only listing players that were truly Arsenal quality that list becomes Cole and Wilshere - and Wilshere many would argue shouldn't be on the list because he was inconsistent (due to injuries).

Developing kids that are simply mediocre and we have to sell them on is not a success of the academy, successes are players that come through the system and go on to have an Arsenal career. The list of rejected kids is long, too long. Our last batch of quality home-grown players were Michael Thomas, Paul Davis, David Rocastle, Tony Adams, Paul Merson, et al,over 30 fooking years ago !

HH - times have changed drastically. The role of the academy has also changed. The likelihood of an academy player making it to a long term first team spot is about 1%. At the top end, it’s just too competitive to give kids a chance. Wenger recently said something interesting. He said you can’t afford to play a talented young defender because you know he has one or two mistakes in him that is going to cost you points. That means bringing through young players is always going to be a challenge. The academy of today for a club like Arsenal is a chance to make some money because these kids graduate with the Arsenal brand. It’s like having an Ivy League degree. It doesn’t mean you’ll succeed but companies will give you more of a look than others.

Fair point, I take that onboard that the Academy is now there to sell on players.

Regarding Wenger's comment about taking a risk playing a young defender in case they make mistakes, can anyone explain why we had calamity defenfders and keepers for so long if thats the case, every single one of them were established and adults.

The one criticism I have of Wenger is that he liked to indulge himself without care for the consequences. He put a lot of stock in his ability to pick a diamond among the rough. He succeeded at times with the likes of Koscielny but when it came to defenders he often missed the mark. He was far better at picking the undervalued midfielder or striker than defenders. And with out budgets being what they were, a mistake was something we could not get out of quickly or easily.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Power n Glory » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:13 pm

Wenger was great for giving the young players a chance and support but the coaching was lacking. We'd often see a downward spiral where they totally lose confidence and need something more than arm over the shoulder.

Early days for Arteta but more young players deserve a shot in the team. Nketiah and Saka are the only two players getting games. Not sure what else Willock and Nelsom need to do. The more I hear of how Saliba has been handled the more I think it's been handled poorly by Arteta.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Dejan » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:04 pm

There is?

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
Rest in Peace SE13 :(
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Power n Glory » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:09 pm

I think the point still stands about us not being the most patient bunch. Martinelli may not hit the ground running after such a long spell out.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby starmandb » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:25 pm

Power n Glory wrote:Wenger was great for giving the young players a chance and support but the coaching was lacking. We'd often see a downward spiral where they totally lose confidence and need something more than arm over the shoulder.

Early days for Arteta but more young players deserve a shot in the team. Nketiah and Saka are the only two players getting games. Not sure what else Willock and Nelsom need to do. The more I hear of how Saliba has been handled the more I think it's been handled poorly by Arteta.

Agree entirely about wenger giving youth a chance in particular and arsenal as a club in general
Youth football is always a bit of a punt and few make it into the first team at any club
Bellerin has come from the academy and made it to first team regularity
There may be others but we would need to see years down the line before we know.
Arteta has had 41 games at arsenal
In wengers first 41 games nobody younger than willock or nelson had played anywhere near the first team appearances these two have, less than a handful of players had made single figure appearances.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Power n Glory » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:57 pm

starmandb wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Wenger was great for giving the young players a chance and support but the coaching was lacking. We'd often see a downward spiral where they totally lose confidence and need something more than arm over the shoulder.

Early days for Arteta but more young players deserve a shot in the team. Nketiah and Saka are the only two players getting games. Not sure what else Willock and Nelsom need to do. The more I hear of how Saliba has been handled the more I think it's been handled poorly by Arteta.

Agree entirely about wenger giving youth a chance in particular and arsenal as a club in general
Youth football is always a bit of a punt and few make it into the first team at any club
Bellerin has come from the academy and made it to first team regularity
There may be others but we would need to see years down the line before we know.
Arteta has had 41 games at arsenal
In wengers first 41 games nobody younger than willock or nelson had played anywhere near the first team appearances these two have, less than a handful of players had made single figure appearances.


I think Wenger didn't really rate the youth in our Academy that highly. That's why he pushed for the training ground to be built and would often try poach players from other academies.

Let's see what Arteta does. Hopefully, we're able to produce more players that technically sound and can reach their full potential.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:29 pm

Rayyo wrote:
theHotHead wrote:As I suspected, it is YOU Rayyo that is guilty of revisionism. Not a single person complained about Martinelli after he began playing football for us apart from Gooney. From page 27 onwards Martinelli got injured and the discussion was about him signing contracts and leaving because he was not getting paid.


you do realise there is a world outside of goonersworld?

WHAT?????
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby EliteKiller » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:50 pm

Isn't the real issue that the truly big teams simply don't need to develop players straight into the first team - sure they have multi-million pound academies and training grounds - but these are designed as revenue generators just as much as player development - even when you do unearth a few great youngsters no way you put them into your EPL or CL starting eleven.

The route for even the best youngsters is now a loan or a transfer to a lesser league (which is all leagues compared to the EPL) and then once proven at a lower level then you start integration into the squad via cup games.

The exceptions to this rule are as rare as hen's teeth, and have been for a decade. As a manager why risk playing an unproven 19 year old when you can buy a proven 22 year old?

As for Arsene? His vision of 2020 football was entirely wrong, clubs do not have a stream of academy players filling the first elevens, contracts are not shorter in fact the exact opposite, six years is now common place, players salaries have not become more equal again the exact opposite, and most players running down their contracts to leave on a free? - well only at Arsenal does that seemed to have happened.

Arsene was a great manager but he was a terrible seer - the problem was we fully bought into the nonsense that he was selling, and have we suffered for that.

Arteta has to take us back to behaving like all our major rivals, buy the best young proven talent, get rid of ageing players on short contracts, do not pay stupid money to players with zero future value ... and FFS get players with spines not made from jelly.
Last edited by EliteKiller on Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby swipe right » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:08 am

EliteKiller wrote:Isn't the real issue that the truly big teams simply don't need to develop players straight into the first team - sure they have multi-million pound academies and training grounds - but these are designed as revenue generators just as much as player development - even when you do unearth a few great youngsters no way you put them into your EPL or CL starting eleven.

The route for even the best youngsters is now a loan or a transfer to a lesser league (which is all leagues compared to the EPL) and then once proven at a lower level then you start integration into the squad via cup games.

The exceptions to this rule are as rare as hen's teeth, and have been for a decade. As a manager why risk playing an unproven 19 year old when you can buy a proven 22 year old?

As for Arsene? His vision of 2020 football was entirely wrong, clubs do not have a stream of academy players filling the first elevens, contracts are not shorter and shorter in fact the exact opposite, players salaries have not become more equal again the exact opposite, and most players running down their contracts to leave on a free? - well only at Arsenal does that seemed to have happened.

Arsene was a great manager but he was a terrible seer - the problem was we fully bought into the nonsense that he was selling, and have we suffered for that.

Arteta has to take us back to behaving like all our major rivals, buy the best young proven talent, get rid of ageing players on short contracts, do not pay stupid money to players with zero future value ... and FFS get players with spines not made from jelly.

Case in point Sancho and Fodden
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby theHotHead » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:30 am

Rayyo wrote:
theHotHead wrote:As I suspected, it is YOU Rayyo that is guilty of revisionism. Not a single person complained about Martinelli after he began playing football for us apart from Gooney. From page 27 onwards Martinelli got injured and the discussion was about him signing contracts and leaving because he was not getting paid.


you do realise there is a world outside of goonersworld?

Yes that world where Arsenal fans are entirely different to Arsenal fans here. I have heard of this place, it is past the Cortez nebula, hang a right just past Saturn's rings, jump in the wormhole that takes you past that shithole Oscar 912 and it should be 3rd planet on the right.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby theHotHead » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:11 am

Power n Glory wrote:
starmandb wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:Wenger was great for giving the young players a chance and support but the coaching was lacking. We'd often see a downward spiral where they totally lose confidence and need something more than arm over the shoulder.

Early days for Arteta but more young players deserve a shot in the team. Nketiah and Saka are the only two players getting games. Not sure what else Willock and Nelsom need to do. The more I hear of how Saliba has been handled the more I think it's been handled poorly by Arteta.

Agree entirely about wenger giving youth a chance in particular and arsenal as a club in general
Youth football is always a bit of a punt and few make it into the first team at any club
Bellerin has come from the academy and made it to first team regularity
There may be others but we would need to see years down the line before we know.
Arteta has had 41 games at arsenal
In wengers first 41 games nobody younger than willock or nelson had played anywhere near the first team appearances these two have, less than a handful of players had made single figure appearances.


I think Wenger didn't really rate the youth in our Academy that highly. That's why he pushed for the training ground to be built and would often try poach players from other academies.

Let's see what Arteta does. Hopefully, we're able to produce more players that technically sound and can reach their full potential.

In the season before Wenger joined our your team was:
Ben Smith, Lee Richardson, Jeff Woolsey, Richard Goddard-Crawley, Chris Coffey, James McDonald, David Donaldson, Orlando Hollingsworth, Isaiah Rankin, Gregg Tello, Jason Crowe, Marc Thorogood, Jermaine Wynter, Andrew Douglas, Paulo Vernazza, Gerrard McGuigan, Tommy Black, Peter Clark, Julian Gray, Terry Bowes, Rik Lopez, Greg Lincoln, Lorenzo Dorset, Stefan Gislason, Matthew Wicks, Omer Riza, David Livermore, Richard Teale, Jamie Day

I personally knew the players in bold.

The Youth team in Wenger's first season had (standout names):
Julian Gray, Paolo Vernazza, Tommy Black, Ashley Cole, Jay Bothroyd.

I personally knew Ashley Cole and Jay Bothroyd.

For me the 2 players that stand out the most that had the most underwhelming careers were Jermaine Wynter (fantastically skillful player, right wing) and Greg Tello (brilliant right full back). To this day I think it is a crime that neither of them played Premier League fooball. With Jermaine it was probably attitude, but Greg's attitude was solid. Jay Bothroyd went on to be a decent player, that made me really pleased. nothing needs to be said about Ashley Cole.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby PairyGrows » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:45 am

What I don't get are the claims that we've lacked consistency this season. No, we haven't. We've been consistently poor this season. We create very little with the ball and, barring a spark of individual brilliance here and there, we rarely look like we're going to score. In fact, those sparks of brilliance are the deviation from the norm which, sadly, is boring and tepid football. If I compare Arteta's Arsenal to Emery's Arsenal and Wenger's Arsenal from his last couple of years, I see little improvement on that front.

The reality is that we're just not a very good football team at the moment, and Arteta doesn't seem to be able to turn that around. He can become a very competent manager, yes, but it doesn't look like he's going to work wonders at Arsenal.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Angelito » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:12 pm

Angelito wrote:Interesting big chances created stats since the season we missed out on UCL football (16/17):

16/17

1. City ~ 77
2. United ~ 62
3. Arsenal ~ 55

17/18 (Wenger's last season)

1. City ~ 91
2. Arsenal ~ 81
3. Liverpool ~ 78

18/19 (Emery's first season)

1. City ~ 101
2. Chelsea ~ 81
3. Liverpool ~ 78
..
5. Arsenal ~ 72

19/20

1. City ~ 108
2. Liverpool ~ 88
3. Chelsea ~ 74
..
12. Arsenal ~ 48

20/21 (so far)

1. Spurs ~ 21
2. Villa ~ 18
3. Liverpool ~ 17
..
10. Arsenal ~ 8


Updated after 8 games.

I don't know how Arteta plans to resolve this deficiency. It does hurt that we don't have a CAM but even with a CAM, if the system is so rigid and static, I can't see us turning up the heat any time soon.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby LMAO » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:03 pm

But that defense tho.

He gets a few more windows before I start calling for his head. Now, he has to show he can get our attack back firing.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

Postby Ach » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:30 pm

Shame emery never got that from you. You turned on him after we won a game with a shit performance. We are still getting shit performances and we are losing yet Arteta gets a few more windows?

Can we risk him having few more considering the 2 he's had has been diabolically shit?

Gabriel apart although too soon to tell with him and it was clear he was waiting for others to come in before signing hence it took so long.

Mari and cedric have been awful or barely played

Willian....dear god.

Ceballos has his name changed to Ceballol

Saliba? Yes we bought him under emery but he joined us this summer and Arteta has destroyed him.
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