Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:52 pm

tbf after the last couple of transfer windows where we spent big and the football people failed to turn that into results I wouldn't blame Kroenke for not doing so in the current climate.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby EliteKiller » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 pm

Özim wrote:I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.


That's your view - to me that's a bit like blaming Dave Calhoun if your flight gets delayed, or Ben van Beurden if your car runs out of petrol ... sure they are the ultimate bosses and have ultimate responsibility but that doesn't make everything their fault.

You want a 'fan' to own the business, ultimately that's not a very good idea the EPL has a long list of hands on 'fan' owners who've made a horrible mess of their clubs ... just look at some of the once big clubs now languishing in the lower leagues due to 'fan' owners. Heart over Head in business is normally a huge disaster.

Kroenke's job is to employ the management and give them the tools to do the job - Arsenal have spent 300m on new players, spent more on wages than 90% of EPL clubs, have first class training facilities, have a first class ground ... Kroenke has provided his bit, and yes sure he could put in another 100m or two, but looking at how his money has been wasted over the last decade frankly why should he?

If the current board and the current manager perform, and their are signs that Arteta is doing just that, then Kroenke needs to back them - he backed Wenger, he backed Emery, pretty sure he will back Arteta as well ....
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby aniym » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:51 am

Kroenke is backing the club, just not out of his own pocket. KSE purchased £250m of Arsenal's loan obligations from third party creditors, so they can now set a payment schedule and interest rates on their terms. Hopefully that means the repayment window is extended and the interest payments reduced.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:50 am

EliteKiller wrote:
Özim wrote:I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.


That's your view - to me that's a bit like blaming Dave Calhoun if your flight gets delayed, or Ben van Beurden if your car runs out of petrol ... sure they are the ultimate bosses and have ultimate responsibility but that doesn't make everything their fault.

You want a 'fan' to own the business, ultimately that's not a very good idea the EPL has a long list of hands on 'fan' owners who've made a horrible mess of their clubs ... just look at some of the once big clubs now languishing in the lower leagues due to 'fan' owners. Heart over Head in business is normally a huge disaster.

Kroenke's job is to employ the management and give them the tools to do the job - Arsenal have spent 300m on new players, spent more on wages than 90% of EPL clubs, have first class training facilities, have a first class ground ... Kroenke has provided his bit, and yes sure he could put in another 100m or two, but looking at how his money has been wasted over the last decade frankly why should he?

If the current board and the current manager perform, and their are signs that Arteta is doing just that, then Kroenke needs to back them - he backed Wenger, he backed Emery, pretty sure he will back Arteta as well ....


As I said though since he took over Arsenal has been nothing short of a disaster doing almost everything wrong. As for it not being his fault we wasted money, we’ll he employed the people who spent the money, some of them for a decade so it is his fault, you wouldn’t see Abramovic sit there doing nothing because he actually values success on the pitch, likewise the owners of Man U, Man City and most other big clubs.

As I said Kroenke has benefitted massively from owning Arsenal, whatever has been spent is a drop in the ocean, if you want a demonstration of his lack of interest just look at how many players we’ve allowed to walk away for free or next to nothing, that’s not even good business sense and it shows he’s nothing even keeping an eye on what going on and the clearly he’s too busy in America to bother, but then I guess he has so much money that what’s a million here and there.

When you look at some of the owners we could have had To get stuck with this guy is hard to take and unfortunately probably means we won’t compete anytime soon and it may take him be bought out to do so.

As for Arteta and co, if 8th, getting out of the EL early is positive then I guess it just shows how low standards have fallen at Arsenal, we’re a mid table team who put 10 men behind the ball and play horrible football, hardly inspiring and with the way other clubs are clearly going to spend I fully expect more of the same next season, I have very little faith in the current setup.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby DiamondGooner » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:02 am

Tony Adams wrote:tbf after the last couple of transfer windows where we spent big and the football people failed to turn that into results I wouldn't blame Kroenke for not doing so in the current climate.


Well he needs to address that defense situation left over from last year at the very least.

One very good CB to play alongside Saliba when he's ready.

It doesn't have to be a flash buy, just someone dependable and commanding, even if he's from a lower team, as long as he can do the job.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby DiamondGooner » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 am

Özim wrote:I honestly don’t know why a manager would want to ring another manager up for advice, if he doesn’t know what he’s doing he shouldn’t be in the job.

Also why would you ring Wenger when the guy underperformed for 10 years, surely you should be ringing someone successful who clearly knows what you need to win in modern football of anyone at all?

Personally I worry he’s been speaking to Wenger, we don’t want to go back to that, we want to move away from that time completely.


Tbf it is his first job that's the issue.

Its not like Emery where he was coming from PSG, Arteta is a newb, but I think he's got it in him, just let him crack on and find his feet however he wants to, its all a learning curve.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:16 am

Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:35 am

Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


^this.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:39 am

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:[quote="jayramfootball”]Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.[/quote]

I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Our on field performances have zero to do with Kroenke.
If he hadn't allowed us to spend a fortune on players - he would be up for fair crticism.

As it stands he's doing the exact job an owner should be doing.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Wrong, they 100% do, he employs the people whose jobs it is to deliver success, if they don’t he needs to replace them quicksmart and bring people who can, so far he’s failed miserably.

As I said he’s not dipped into his own pockets as such, just the club coughers unlike some like Abramovic.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


He doesn't make employment decisions. He just authorised the money.
He's not involved in the running the club.

Taking your argument that Kroenke is ultimately responsible because he owns the club is like saying, for example, when a player gets sent off, or has a terrible game, it's Kroenke's fault because he hired the person who hired the person who hired the person who hired the manager who picked the player. It's nonsensical.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:53 am

Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


My point exactly!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Phil71 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:58 am

Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:59 am

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:[quote="jayramfootball”]Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.[/quote]

I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Our on field performances have zero to do with Kroenke.
If he hadn't allowed us to spend a fortune on players - he would be up for fair crticism.

As it stands he's doing the exact job an owner should be doing.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Wrong, they 100% do, he employs the people whose jobs it is to deliver success, if they don’t he needs to replace them quicksmart and bring people who can, so far he’s failed miserably.

As I said he’s not dipped into his own pockets as such, just the club coughers unlike some like Abramovic.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

He doesn't make employment decisions. He just authorised the money.
He's not involved in the running the club.

Taking your argument that Kroenke is ultimately responsible because he owns the club is like saying, for example, when a player gets sent off, or has a terrible game, it's Kroenke's fault because he hired the person who hired the person who hired the person who hired the manager who picked the player. It's nonsensical.[/quote]


What do you mean he doesn’t m, he’s the guy that employs the like of Vinai etc so he absolutely does, so if they don’t make the club successful ultimately he needs to replace them, which he never does as we saw with Gazidis.

It’s not nonsensical at all, after 15 years of failure you’d think he’d have learnt something, clearly not though as yet again we’re failing.

The reason Chelsea have been successful is due to Abramovic, the reason Man City are are due to the owners because they get the right people in and don’t settle for people who don’t deliver. Without them their would be no success, it all starts with the owners.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:01 am

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He set the tone, quite a few of his players remain here, we’ve been stuck with them on fact, Mustafi, Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac. He also brought in this complacent attitude that we still see today (and which Arteta encourages as well IMO, but then he did learn under Wenger).
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:06 am

Özim wrote:
Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


He set the tone, quite a few of his players remain here, we’ve been stuck with them on fact, Mustafi, Xhaka, Ozil, Kolasinac. He also brought in this complacent attitude that we still see today (and which Arteta encourages as well IMO, but then he did learn under Wenger).


No, our culture at the club was built by Wenger. Brick by brick.
Kroenke didn't choose any of the players you mentioned - or any other player.
Do you attribiute all the successes to Kroenke too?
Kroenke has been the majority shareholder since 2007.
All 3 FA Cups are down to him?
How about Aubameyangs golden boot last year - Kroenke's achievement? Whilst Aubameyang had to score 22 times of course, ultimately it was down to Kroenke and he should take the credit. That's your argument.

If we win today? Kroenke's achievement?
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Angelito » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:28 am

Phil71 wrote:
Tony Adams wrote:Problem is, his biggest job is undoing Wenger's bad work and he's calling Wenger for advice on how to do it!


He had his failings, and I've criticised him for them, but to imply that the downturn in the club's fortunes in his latter years was all down to him is completely wrong.

To think we gave him pelters for a consistent top four finish and the occasional trophy, and how we would all see that now, under any different manager, as a success to celebrate.


^

Just for gags, here's the net spend of clubs that have played in the Prem from 03/04 until 12/13:

1. Chelsea ~ £635m
2. Man City ~ £467m
3. Liverpool ~ £435m
4. Man United ~ £204m
5. Spurs ~ £203m
6. Villa ~ £123m
7. Stoke ~ £100m
8. Sunderland ~ £98m
9. QPR ~ £73m
10. Bolton ~ £46m

----

24. Arsenal ~ £6m

:rofll:

That's from the start of the Invincibles season until the end of 12/13.

So, Wenger won the League title going unbeaten, won the FA Cup, reached the UCL Final and the SF, finished top-4 in all of those seasons, and nearly won the League in '08 with a freakin' net spend of £6m during those austerity years.

Yeah.

From 00/01 until 12/13, Arsenal have a net spend of £23m placed at 20th in the net spend table. In the same period, Chelsea, City, United, Liverpool, and Spurs spent over £1.5b amongst themselves (net).

#MiracleWorker

:hail:
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