Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby theHotHead » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:01 pm

Özim wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:Your grasp on investment is weird

Kroenke invested a billion (1.029m) in buying Arsenal ... in what world is that NO MONEY? Any investor would expect a return on their investment that would come via dividends and increased share value ... so what would be a reasonable dividend return?

How about 5%? that's about what the Glaziers take every year out of Utd - that would be 50m a year does he take that? NO so your argument that he's "making money off the back of our failure" is simply wrong, the value of the club that he owns dropped 125m last year so in fact he's losing a fortune right now ...

The reality is under Kroenke's ownership the club have spent net 300m on new players only City and Utd have spent more in that time ... that's 300m Kroenke could have kept in the bank as cash, as the owner that's his cash ... it's not "the fans" money it's his, fans pay to see his team at his stadium same as paying for any other goods and service.

Agreed his an absentee owner, but so are half the owners in football, having Kroenke sitting in the Director's box is not going to make anyone at the club any better, even if it does show 'fanboy' credentials.

The bottom line is that Kroenke is not a great fan, that's a shame but so what, the real problem is that he allowed his employees (Gazidis, Wenger, and now Edu) far to much power and then didn't react fast enough when they fecked everything up ... that's his failing it's not the money, we've spent fortunes on players and on wages, we just haven't spent it very well ... is that truly all Kroenke's fault?


Not at all, football isn't just a regular business, nor do most owners treat it just that way, noone invests in a sport unless they have an interest in it. Kroenke has made a tonne of money out of his investment and that's the only reason he invested make no mistake, unlike Abrahmovic, the City owners, Liverpool owners etc, they are actually interested in success on the pitch and what's more they realise success on the pitch means a better return as well, they don't just sit there and watch the club implode and keep employees on, they get rid and find better ones when need be, because they're actually interested.

As well as this Kroenke knows that if he sells he'll get his money back.

As for the net spend it's a stupid stat, City spends hundreds of millions but they have got it back because they made their club successful and reaped the rewards, they've spent vastly more on players and you can see that from the quality of their squad, likewise Chelsea, Man U who spend have have spend fortunes for years.

This is 100% Kroenkes fault, the employs the people in charge, if they don't perform he has the power to replace them, he doesn't so the buck stops with him, of course the people below him are also to blame for their performance but in the end your boss assesses your performance and if it's not good enough replace you, doesn't happen at Arsenal.

I can't believe people are defending Kroenke, he's literally the worst thing to have happened to Arsenal, since he arrived we've become a nothing club.

Ozim I don't think you know much about investment!! If you think people invest in something only if they have interest in it you are way off the mark bro. If I was a millionaire/billionaire and was given a presentation that showed if I invested some money in something I had f**k all interest in, I would get a healthy return, I would invest my money.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby StLGooner » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:24 pm

theHotHead wrote:
Özim wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:Your grasp on investment is weird

Kroenke invested a billion (1.029m) in buying Arsenal ... in what world is that NO MONEY? Any investor would expect a return on their investment that would come via dividends and increased share value ... so what would be a reasonable dividend return?

How about 5%? that's about what the Glaziers take every year out of Utd - that would be 50m a year does he take that? NO so your argument that he's "making money off the back of our failure" is simply wrong, the value of the club that he owns dropped 125m last year so in fact he's losing a fortune right now ...

The reality is under Kroenke's ownership the club have spent net 300m on new players only City and Utd have spent more in that time ... that's 300m Kroenke could have kept in the bank as cash, as the owner that's his cash ... it's not "the fans" money it's his, fans pay to see his team at his stadium same as paying for any other goods and service.

Agreed his an absentee owner, but so are half the owners in football, having Kroenke sitting in the Director's box is not going to make anyone at the club any better, even if it does show 'fanboy' credentials.

The bottom line is that Kroenke is not a great fan, that's a shame but so what, the real problem is that he allowed his employees (Gazidis, Wenger, and now Edu) far to much power and then didn't react fast enough when they fecked everything up ... that's his failing it's not the money, we've spent fortunes on players and on wages, we just haven't spent it very well ... is that truly all Kroenke's fault?


Not at all, football isn't just a regular business, nor do most owners treat it just that way, noone invests in a sport unless they have an interest in it. Kroenke has made a tonne of money out of his investment and that's the only reason he invested make no mistake, unlike Abrahmovic, the City owners, Liverpool owners etc, they are actually interested in success on the pitch and what's more they realise success on the pitch means a better return as well, they don't just sit there and watch the club implode and keep employees on, they get rid and find better ones when need be, because they're actually interested.

As well as this Kroenke knows that if he sells he'll get his money back.

As for the net spend it's a stupid stat, City spends hundreds of millions but they have got it back because they made their club successful and reaped the rewards, they've spent vastly more on players and you can see that from the quality of their squad, likewise Chelsea, Man U who spend have have spend fortunes for years.

This is 100% Kroenkes fault, the employs the people in charge, if they don't perform he has the power to replace them, he doesn't so the buck stops with him, of course the people below him are also to blame for their performance but in the end your boss assesses your performance and if it's not good enough replace you, doesn't happen at Arsenal.

I can't believe people are defending Kroenke, he's literally the worst thing to have happened to Arsenal, since he arrived we've become a nothing club.

Ozim I don't think you know much about investment!! If you think people invest in something only if they have interest in it you are way off the mark bro. If I was a millionaire/billionaire and was given a presentation that showed if I invested some money in something I had f**k all interest in, I would get a healthy return, I would invest my money.



I think that was his point. Kroenke doesn't care or has no interest in Arsenal, only as an investment. Which isn't an ideal type of owner to have imo of course, and many others.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby aniym » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:56 pm

Angelito wrote:
aniym wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Zenith wrote:


Vast difference between Unai and Arteta here.

Apparently, Unai didn't call Wenger when he first joined. I'm not sure if they ever talked unless they bumped into each other.


It's about optics. Emery was the new face of Arsenal, post-Wenger, post-Gazidis. He had no prior relationship with Wenger, so why would he be in touch with him? Was Tuchel calling up Emery when he took over at PSG?


It's etiquette and common practice in high-functioning organizations.

When you succeed a monolithic figure, or even an influential one, at any organization, the incumbent always calls or has dinner with his or her predecessor. It's an unspoken law that is followed most of the time. Part of organizational/corporate/management culture.

And, Gazidis hired Unai, btw. It wasn't until 3 months into Unai's reign that he left to join Milan.


Sure, but the companies you speak of promote from within, or the boss handpicks his own successor, which was not the case here. I think Wenger himself said he didn't attend games at the Emirates after stepping down because he didn't want the media creating comparisons between him and Emery. He's still doing that with Arteta at the helm. Meanwhile SAF was frequently in the stands when Moyes was boss at Utd, because he picked him and his presence was there as a vote of confidence.

What Arteta is talking about is different from a courtesy call or dinner with the predecessor. He has ongoing contact and support from Wenger, which is understandable because Arsenal are a huge club and he has a lot to learn. He hasn't had to work his way up the ranks like most other people in his position.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:59 pm

I honestly don’t know why a manager would want to ring another manager up for advice, if he doesn’t know what he’s doing he shouldn’t be in the job.

Also why would you ring Wenger when the guy underperformed for 10 years, surely you should be ringing someone successful who clearly knows what you need to win in modern football of anyone at all?

Personally I worry he’s been speaking to Wenger, we don’t want to go back to that, we want to move away from that time completely.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby ag6789 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:10 pm

Wenger won 7 FA cups. So he's considered a FA cup legend. No harm in ringing up for some advice. After all he holds the record!!
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby LMAO » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:19 pm

Özim wrote:I honestly don’t know why a manager would want to ring another manager up for advice, if he doesn’t know what he’s doing he shouldn’t be in the job.

Also why would you ring Wenger when the guy underperformed for 10 years, surely you should be ringing someone successful who clearly knows what you need to win in modern football of anyone at all?

Personally I worry he’s been speaking to Wenger, we don’t want to go back to that, we want to move away from that time completely.


Yeah, how dare someone get outside counsel that may be able to point out blind spots instead of continuing with what could be tunnel vision.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:29 pm

Özim wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Özim wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:
Özim wrote:It’s 100% matters and you can see it from the state of the club, no interest means no success, you can’t tell me the guy has any interest when he pretty much never talks about Arsenal and never comes to matches sorry. Even when we got to the EL he was in the us.

The owner is a very important part of the club, a decent owner makes all the difference, the best clubs have owners that are passionate about success on the pitch more often than not and they certainly show up to games.


Not sure that's true - without looking it up - can you name the owner in charge at the top twenty clubs in Europe? I had to look them up and reckon well over half have no visible presence at their clubs, far less than Kroenke.

We notice because it's our club but do you ever notice - Zhang Jindong at Inter? Paul Singer at AC? Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan at City? Tamim Bin Hamad Al Thani at PSG? Bayern don't even have a single owner ... Spurs have an absent billionaire ... Real and Barca are owned by the fans ... the list goes on.

Despite the press hype nearly all clubs do in fact abide by FFP and do live within the financial constraints of their business - you could replace Kroenke with any other unnamed individual and it's almost certain that financially nothing much would change ... we can dream of a 'sugar daddy' many teenagers do, but once we grow up we realise that we have to stand or fall on our own efforts not rely on handouts and charity ... the same applies at Arsenal, we are in the top ten of most valuable clubs on the planet and we are still ranked 10th in the UEFA coefficient ... blaming Kroenke for Arsenal's failure from board level to players is right because eventually the buck stops at the top ... but the real failure came from the inept hands on management (Gazidis / Wenger) and not from the owner.


No I can’t but what you do see is ambition from quite a few clubs, Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Man U, Inter, Real, Bayern, Juve, Barca, etc this club has zero ambition as has been shown in the last 15 years, always happy to settle for 4th place, excuses left right and centre and now even as we drop further very little signs of any genuine ambition at all, from the hiring of the manager, the kind of players we’re after, to hearing the manager praise players like Luiz, Mustafi and Xhaka and going as far as resigning the players who cost us points regularly it’s a joke.

This club is going nowhere and it definitely filters down from the top, the owner employs all these guys, if he really was interested he’d get rid and replace them with people who can do a much better job, but then Kroenke is the guy that let Gazidis stick around achieving nothing for the best part of a decade (and Wenger) so it’s no great surprise really.

I can’t believe you guys can’t see that the owner is ultimately the guy responsible because he employs the guys who handle those below them, yes of course others are also to blame, but as the owners he can replace them if he sees they’re not doing a great job and he doesn’t.

Kroenke has sanctioned shit loads on player purchases ! We have broken our club record at least 5 times since Kroenke took the helm. Hec, we obliterated our club record signing this season having already spent what was publicly assumed to be our transfer budget. What difference will him going to games bring ?? He is not preventing our progress. He hired specialists in various areas of club management, he fired Wenger and Emery, what more can he do ?


Let’s get this right, this is basically spending the money fans hand over to him, that’s standard at any football club, nothing special there, so yeah if you get kudos for using the money the fans give him, he’s great. The guy has never put a penny in, in fact he may well be taking money out now he owns the entire club, he also wouldn’t let Usmanov who owner a large percentage on the board at all, yet the guy was clearly more interested in football than him.

Specialists, specialists in failure perhaps because so far they’ve been awful appointments. Took him 13 years to get rid of Wenger and Gazidis was here for 10 years (and would still be here had he not chosen to leave) despite really doing a terrible job (as he’s doing at Milan now), these guys wouldn’t have last a season and a half at Chelsea, City or Man U, he’s a terrible owner, one of the worst around.

Abrahmovic, the City Owners, Liverpool owners and many others are much more visible than him and are clearly more interested in their respective clubs successes on the pitch, often attending games and actually not settling for 2nd rate employees either.

The day Kroenke bought Arsenal was a very sad day for the club, it hasn’t been the same since. It’s now a shadow of the great club it use to be.


It's not money 'fans hand over to him'. It's money fans pay for a product - willingly.
Everything that is spent investing in new players and contracts by Arsenal is Kroenke's money. Fans have absolutely zero claim on that money.
Your argument is like belittling shareholders of Apple for reinvesting in R&D by saying it's just money that customers hand over to them.
Total nonsense.

Kroenke has ploughed huge amounts of money into our playing staff and he should be lauded for that.


He’s one of the worst owners out there no question, it’s costing him nothing, he’s making money off the back of our failure and couldn’t care less if we come 8th as long as his investment is still worth a decent amount.

Where the money comes from matters, it partly shows his lack of commitment, the fact he never comes to matches, never really talks about Arsenal and employs people who do a poor job and just seems to keep them on indefinitely further shows this.

I’m mystified that anyone can be happy this guy owns us, as I said it was a very sad day when he took ownership, to be owned by someone so disinterested in not only the club but football in general is a shocker, during the EL final he stayed in the US where he eventually showed up at the Super Bowl at a sport he actually is interested in.

Success filters down from the top, if someone isn’t interested then he won’t be too bothered who he employs or how they do just as long as his investment is still worth what he wants it to be.

Btw football clubs and Apple are two different things, they’re not comparable at all.


Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.

As for Apple and Arsenal. Both the same. Two businesses providing a product. I wish it wasn;t so, but that is the reality.
You - and all fans - are only relevant in the sense that we buy the product.
Outside of that we're completely irrelevant.
If you don;t like the product, don't buy it.
Again - I wish football had not been ruined by money but it has and it's never going back to the consept of a 'club'
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No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:32 pm

ag6789 wrote:Wenger won 7 FA cups. So he's considered a FA cup legend. No harm in ringing up for some advice. After all he holds the record!!


From 2007-2018 Wenger achieved very little, the football was repetitive and boring, he never really genuinely challenged for the big prizes. Made mistake after mistake and turned us into a bit of a laughing stock with all the trashing a we endured.

I wish he’d left after the CL final defeat.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:33 pm

Mikel: Hey Arsene. What do you make of Upamecano?

Arsene: Sign a forward.

Mikel: But our defence is rubbish.

Arsene: we have the numbers at centre back, chambers will be like a new signing, i'm sorry holding didn't cost 50m and xhaka can play there too. Sign a forward.

Mikel: But edu wants more brazilians and is signing willian for free so we can spend on the defence

Arsene: Tell him to go in for Coutinho

Mikel: my job is on the line here. We need to sort the defence out

Arsene: just texted coutinho's agent, my mate at barca and edu. You're welcome.

Mikel: Thanks boss. What is his best position?

Arsene: Well he's not really a centre forward, not really a winger, not really a CM, but likes to play in the hole.

Mikel: So cam then?

Arsene: i'd play him up front, it'll help with the sideways passing. Laca and Auba have been shooting too much.

Mikel: Thanks boss.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:37 pm

Zenith wrote:


This is what I suspected.
I mentioned Arteta is acting a lot like Wenger and it's very worrying.
The very fact he is taking advice from a complete idiot like Wenger tells me the job is too big for him.
Wenger needs to be purged completely.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Tony Adams » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:40 pm

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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:42 pm

Tony Adams wrote:https://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/man-utd-boss-moyes-regular-contact-ferguson-3974895#popup-sso

Worked for him :dontknow:


Ferguson would have some good advice. Wenger is just a fool with no clue.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:43 pm

jayramfootball wrote:Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.


I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:45 pm

Özim wrote:[quote="jayramfootball”]Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.[/quote]

I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.[/quote][/quote]


Our on field performances have zero to do with Kroenke.
If he hadn't allowed us to spend a fortune on players - he would be up for fair crticism.

As it stands he's doing the exact job an owner should be doing.
No matter how bad it gets, at least we don't have to put up with Wenger anymore
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Re: Mikel Arteta, Arsenal Head Coach

Postby Özim » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:49 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
Özim wrote:[quote="jayramfootball”]Sorry fella, you opinion is not a closer. There most certainly is a question and I will give you my answer again.

Is Kroenke investing HIS money in the team - yep, hundreds of millions for which he gets top marks.
Is he massively involved in the day to day. Not by a long shot. Good. I don't want an American billionaire interefering in the day to day. Top marks again.
So in my view he's one the best owners out there.
Keeps out of it and just spends his money - pretty perfect.

Whether he makes money out of his product is neither here nor there. Nor does where we finish or how well we play have any bearing on Kroenke as an owner. Your angst should be directed at the coaches and players.[/quote]

I 100% disagree, for me he’s one of the worst owners, no ambition, no interest, no incentive to push the club forward or make them success, as we saw for years under Wenger happy to settle for the losers 4th place position year after year after year.

So he invests some money the club makes, a club he’s made a tonne of money from already big deal, what I want is an owner who is passionate about the sport and the club, someone who wants to see the club successful on the pitch and someone who strives for success by getting the right people in and making the necessary changes promptly if it turns out they’re not, not some guy who sits there takes no interest, clearly doesn’t care about what happens on the pitch and doesn’t even bother showing up even for finals.

I just can’t get my head around how anyone could possibly be happy with this guy seeing as he’s overseen 15 years of almost no success and countless thrashings.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Our on field performances have zero to do with Kroenke.
If he hadn't allowed us to spend a fortune on players - he would be up for fair crticism.

As it stands he's doing the exact job an owner should be doing.[/quote]


Wrong, they 100% do, he employs the people whose jobs it is to deliver success, if they don’t he needs to replace them quicksmart and bring people who can, so far he’s failed miserably.

As I said he’s not dipped into his own pockets as such, just the club coughers unlike some like Abramovic.
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