Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

[theHotHead]

If we don't continually moan about Arteta, or we pull people up for posting unsubstantiated stories as fact, that doesn't mean we love him.

Just pointing that out.

I don't get this. We are firmly mid-table and have been shite for the majority of the season. How can you complain that people continually moan about Arteta ??? What should they do ?? He has been terrible, should people zip their lips just to make you happy Phil ? Get real !!

The moaning I think is an accurate reflection of our season, granted Ozim is probably the poster that never seems to be happy about anything but, for the most part - he is right with his criticism ... but not always. I don't agree with his notion that when we win its the players and when we lose its the manager.

[Salibatelli]

I never said that when we win it’s always the players, all I said is that lost Christmas run was facilitated by Arteta being forced into changes he wouldn’t have made otherwise.

That’s why I said he can’t take full credit, it wasn’t entirely intentional, as we’ve seen he’s very rigid when it comes to sticking with certain players and won’t give others the run they deserve,

I can’t see any consistency in what Arteta does, he too often goes back to failed lineups and methods and doesn’t seem to learn when he stumbles across something positive.

I’d give Arteta more credit if he seemed to learn from these things even if he stumbled across them initially, trouble is he doesn’t, he goes back to type which leads me to conclude that he doesn’t really know what he’s doing.

[jayramfootball]

I support him to a degree and I support the players to a degree as they are what we have at the moment in terms of manager and playing staff.

That doesn't mean I want him to remain as our manager, nor does it mean I want all of the players to stay.

I 'jumped on your story' as you put it, because that's all it is - a story. You have no evidence that it is in any way factual - in much the same way as you have no evidence that lot of the things you post about of him are factual - such as his having 'favourites' or his deliberately trying to ruin players' careers. Yet you post this stuff as fact. Quite a lot. Continuously in fact. To a degree that is already very tiresome. I can only conclude that you have some sort of obsession.

What is there to support, some guy dishing out substandard performances and results and alienating some of our best talents?

You say there is no evidence in a lot of the things I say, that’s not true, you’d have to be blind not to see the favouritism (most people do except you), likewise with certain players careers, he makes lame excuses that are quite frankly nonsense (like the one about Martinelli and the 7 young players the other day), I don’t think anyone understands why he cut out Saliba, it’s all very odd and the excuses he gives don’t fit.

I find your blind faith tiresome and I’m sure many other do too but we don’t harp on about it.

Your conclusion is way off the Mark, I just think he’s rubbish, not right for Arsenal and want him out, we’re going backwards with him and I want us to progress.

You seem to want to bury your head in the sand and pretend he’s doing good things despite us languishing in midtable or below all season, did you afford Emery the same luxury? I find this thinking somewhat delusional, it’s been the worse season I can remember and yet you seem reasonably happy with it.

There is no direct proof of Arteta playing favourites - how could here be - but there is evidence. Very clear evidence in his team selections and the punishments he dishes out in an inconsistent manner. That is what we have to go by.

I don;t think there can be much doubt that his management style will create friction and create cliques in the dressing room. His favourites and the rest - on the outside looking in, having to to do more just to get a chance. It is very important that the fans hold Arteta to account for this. I strongly believe the only reason Martinelli started against Sheff Utd was because of peer pressure and fan pressure. Keep in mind that Arteta did not even use the kid when we were 3 goals up with 10 minutes to play in a recent game, yet he starts after the pressure mounts and people like Keown start leading the charge on questioning his ommission. It's too much of a stretch to believe that Arteta decided he was ready independently at precisely the time the external pressure had ramped up to the max.

The situation with Saliba is completely baffling. We do NOT have strong options at CB and yet Saliba was sent away to gain experience (which is meaningless experience). Playing in the French league will not prepare him at all. He needed minutes in the PL and to be around the squad in training day to day. It feels to me like Arteta saw a couple of weaknesses in training early on and decided to jettison the kid, whilst at the same time tolerating (and rewarding) mistakes by 1st team players in actual games.

There are other players that should have been given more minutes - but have had to fight just to get recognised against a backdrop of the team playing poorly regularly and finding themselves mid-table. So many of our payers who start week in week out, or get far more minutes than their form warrants, and fail to deliver have retained their place. Against that backdrop, I can see why we underperform - too many players can put in the effort they feel like on the day and be comfortable that they are not going to lose their place in the team.

[Power n Glory]

Of course players take some blame but it’s a managers job to get the most out of what he has, to set them up correctly, pick the right players, pick the right system and also motivate them.

Some people on here act like that’s the players job, why bother having a manager then, just have someone that picks 11 players, that’s not that hard.

Top managers get more out of the players they have and setup the right system for the personnel they have, they don’t just pick one and rinse and repeat even when it doesn’t suit them.

For me there’s just too much wrong with what Arteta does to pin it on the players, when things went badly wrong for Emery it wasn’t put on the players and yet Arteta has done as badly if not worse and is absolved of responsibility.

I don’t get the love for Arteta to be honest, what has he done to earn so much loyalty, in the end he’s just some former average pro who played for us with no credentials, I don’t see what reason there can be to stick with him when there’s no evidence to show he can perform at this level.

Had he done it at another club you could give him the benefit of the doubt, but all he did was be a number 2 at a club with endless resources under a manager who wins whoever he’s with
And when he did manage a game, the one time Guardiola couldn’t be there, he lost that

I was just looking at the Willian stats because I can't remember what he did except for one moment where Pepe received the ball, was overcrowded and held the ball for too long because there was no one to the inside. Saka was really good at providing that support. I just remember Willian being way too slow to help support and him making a pass but not making a move to offer an outlet. That sort of thing drives me crazy and I can't understand why he keeps on getting games.

That is on Arteta. Willian is lazy, he has yet to score but keeps getting the opportunities.

[theHotHead]

On the topic of responsiblity performances MUST be 100% the responsibility of the manager. The players have responsibility to put in effort and play to their ability, however, if the tactics are in place that do not allow the players to perform to their ability they cannot be held responsible for that.

[jayramfootball]

On the topic of responsiblity performances MUST be 100% the responsibility of the manager. The players have responsibility to put in effort and play to their ability, however, if the tactics are in place that do not allow the players to perform to their ability they cannot be held responsible for that.

It's far more than effort that is required from the players.
Decision making and quality execution in passing, tackling, shooting as well as intelligence when in possession to anticipate and find spaces to create dangerous situations. Work rate - especially when not in possession goes along with that.

Motivation comes initially from the manager, of course, but if the players can't motivate themselves then the manager has the responsibility to drop players. That is where Arteta has failed. But, the players themselves are 90% responsible for what we see on the pitch, regardless of tactics of formations.

Take a look at the last 6 years as an example. 3 managers. None of them are idiots. I was not a Wenger fan, I wasn't an Emery fan and I am not currently an Arteta fan, but we can't say they are all (or any of them) completely unable to motivate and set up teams to win. Yet, many of the same players over the period of 3 managers have continued to underperform. Why? What is it that they are missing to even do the basics right week after week?
I know the answer. It's the players. They do not have the mental capacity or dedication to be 100% concentrated for every minute of every game. I've seen it. the cycle of highs and lows. Rock bottom - all of a sudden they play. Highest high - foot comes off the peddle and we slump again. If we were sh*t ALL the time then perhaps we could look at the manager, but we're not. On any day, as we have seen, we can look great. That tells me it is the players who are the problem.

[swipe right]

He’s a novice with poor judgement when it comes to man management and questionable tactics. No more, no less. Let him go manage Valladolid for a few seasons and earn his stripes. I don’t see how he is any different from AvB or Lampard. They were just not ready to go from coaching to the big time.

[theHotHead]

On the topic of responsiblity performances MUST be 100% the responsibility of the manager. The players have responsibility to put in effort and play to their ability, however, if the tactics are in place that do not allow the players to perform to their ability they cannot be held responsible for that.

It's far more than effort that is required from the players.
Decision making and quality execution in passing, tackling, shooting as well as intelligence when in possession to anticipate and find spaces to create dangerous situations. Work rate - especially when not in possession goes along with that.

Motivation comes initially from the manager, of course, but if the players can't motivate themselves then the manager has the responsibility to drop players. That is where Arteta has failed. But, the players themselves are 90% responsible for what we see on the pitch, regardless of tactics of formations.

Jay, your list of attributes make up "ability" apart from effort. I expect every player to put in effort, I don't expect every player to have the same ability, I expect players to play to their ability. If a person continually makes bad decisions you would have to say that their ability in that area is lacking, but if those bad decisions are part of the player's ability you can't criticise the player for making the mistakes, you have to criticise the manager for picking the player continually.

If a player isn't motivated then he should be dropped like you say - thats on the manager. If half the team are not motiviated then you have to ask "why?", to me that then comes down to poor motivation from the manager. If a player is out of form then they are simply out of form, it happens, thats down to the player. But like I said, if that drop in form is due to the manager's tactics you can't blame the player.

[Paddy]

ancelotti should have come here and arteta should have gone to everton

[DiamondGooner]

What do we make of the fact of either playing an Odegaard, ESR in the CAM position or playing a Second Striker / WF in that position instead?

Going to be honest, Saka playing there made our offense a lot quicker and aggressive on the transition rather than our CAM's who don't attack in the same way because their first instinct is be play maker rather than runner / attacker / goal scorer.

I'm getting the feeling that having CAM's along with our ball hogging defense and play maker deep mids like Xhaka is making us too slow on transition and too much pass, pass, pass, pass, pass and sideways.

Yesterday because Saka is a Winger, when he got the ball at the 10 we were turn and run, playing off give and go's and were right at them, more like a 4-4-1-1 scenario.

We were far more potent yesterday, the 3 goals showed that, also that got us attacking the box rather than the crossing from wide because we've taken so long to attack the oppositon are all sitting in the box comfortably, which we know crosses have a very low success percentage.

[jayramfootball]

On the topic of responsiblity performances MUST be 100% the responsibility of the manager. The players have responsibility to put in effort and play to their ability, however, if the tactics are in place that do not allow the players to perform to their ability they cannot be held responsible for that.

It's far more than effort that is required from the players.
Decision making and quality execution in passing, tackling, shooting as well as intelligence when in possession to anticipate and find spaces to create dangerous situations. Work rate - especially when not in possession goes along with that.

Motivation comes initially from the manager, of course, but if the players can't motivate themselves then the manager has the responsibility to drop players. That is where Arteta has failed. But, the players themselves are 90% responsible for what we see on the pitch, regardless of tactics of formations.

Jay, your list of attributes make up "ability" apart from effort. I expect every player to put in effort, I don't expect every player to have the same ability, I expect players to play to their ability. If a person continually makes bad decisions you would have to say that their ability in that area is lacking, but if those bad decisions are part of the player's ability you can't criticise the player for making the mistakes, you have to criticise the manager for picking the player continually.

If a player isn't motivated then he should be dropped like you say - thats on the manager. If half the team are not motiviated then you have to ask "why?", to me that then comes down to poor motivation from the manager. If a player is out of form then they are simply out of form, it happens, thats down to the player. But like I said, if that drop in form is due to the manager's tactics you can't blame the player.

Yes, Arteta should be dropping players who are either not putting the effort in or don't have the skill set required - but it is not the managers' fault, generally, that players lack motivation. I just don't see it as a managers responsibility to motivate the players - sure they SHOULD make an effort themselves to create a good atmosphere and let the players know the importance of every game, but ultimately if a player doesn't want to listen then that is on the player. A manager can not MAKE a player listen and get motivated, that comes from within the player. No player can pass the buck if they don't understand they are professional footballers that are there to do a job.

For the sake of simplicity, how would you deal with a player who you made every effort to motivate, but doesn't listen and just enjoys his fat multi-million bank account and doesn't give a flying f*** what you say? How would YOU motivate them when they have zero intention of listening to you?

[Salibatelli]

If a player doesn’t listen or perform you drop them, but you have to be consistent and treat everyone the same.

Arteta cherry picks who he treats one way and who he treats another, the Willian Dubai trip was an example.

Martinelli gets dropped whatever he does because “we played 7 young players”, Saliba is sent on loan because he’s not good enough, Xhaka gets picked all the time regardless, Luiz and Holding make mistakes week in week out but they’re good enough apparently, two much double standards for players to respect him.

Respect has to be earnt, he’s done nothing to earn it, it’s no surprise players aren’t that bothered by his instructions really, firstly they don’t work and don’t use players to their maximum and secondly he has one rule for one and another rule for another.

It’s commonplace for players to lose faith when things don’t work or they’re asked to do things that don’t make sense to them.

Too much of what Arteta asks doesn’t make sense, players just don’t buy into it, it’s a managers job to get players to believe, if he doesn’t he’s failed.

[jayramfootball]

If a player doesn’t listen or perform you drop them, but you have to be consistent and treat everyone the same.

Arteta cherry picks who he treats one way and who he treats another, the Willian Dubai trip was an example.

Martinelli gets dropped whatever he does because “we played 7 young players”, Saliba is sent on loan because he’s not good enough, Xhaka gets picked all the time regardless, Luiz and Holding make mistakes week in week out but they’re good enough apparently, two much double standards for players to respect him.

Respect has to be earnt, he’s done nothing to earn it, it’s no surprise players aren’t that bothered by his instructions really, firstly they don’t work and don’t use players to their maximum and secondly he has one rule for one and another rule for another.

It’s commonplace for players to lose faith when things don’t work or they’re asked to do things that don’t make sense to them.

Too much of what Arteta asks doesn’t make sense, players just don’t buy into it, it’s a managers job to get players to believe, if he doesn’t he’s failed.

Yes exactly - but you can't primarily point the finger at the manager for player who lacks motivation.

Respect for a manager might need to b earned, but respect for ones profession and the club is not. Players should respect the club and the fans as a given and put the required effort in week in week out. They should not need a manager to mollycoddle them.

[KG3]

ancelotti should have come here and arteta should have gone to everton

Wenger should have left when klopp was available and we wouldn’t even have this thread lol

[Phil71]

If we don't continually moan about Arteta, or we pull people up for posting unsubstantiated stories as fact, that doesn't mean we love him.

Just pointing that out.

I don't get this. We are firmly mid-table and have been shite for the majority of the season. How can you complain that people continually moan about Arteta ??? What should they do ?? He has been terrible, should people zip their lips just to make you happy Phil ? Get real !!

The moaning I think is an accurate reflection of our season, granted Ozim is probably the poster that never seems to be happy about anything but, for the most part - he is right with his criticism ... but not always. I don't agree with his notion that when we win its the players and when we lose its the manager.

If the criticism is warranted and based on facts then fine. No issue with that.

It's the made up nonsense and speculation presented as fact that I argue against.

And I am not a denier. Apart from when we had that run in December/ January I have not once said that he is doing well or that I'm happy with the situation. But when I pull people up on their nonsense or tedious moaning their only response is that I'm an Arteta lover.

You don't have to love him or hate him. There's a lot of ground between those positions.