Mikel Arteta, First-Team Manager

[starmandb]

Absolute nonsense about wenger fielding youth in his first 58 games
Bit fed up posting comparisons
They get ignored only for the same shit to keep being repeated

The random facts you post lack context. I can't see where anyone says Wenger was fielding youth in his first 58 games. Also, the Academy system Wenger inherited wasn't the same as what what Arteta has. We weren't producing British attacking talent like Smith Rowe and Saka. We were way behind other European clubs in that area which is why Wenger spent his early years poaching young players from other clubs. Also, Wenger wasn't struggling to establish an attacking brand of football and this wasn't his first job. The comparisons are a bit redundant with some sort of context.

I haven’t seen you address this post from PNG Starman?

Angelito spoke of youth under wenger’s vision
I felt it worth looking at wengers youth policy in his opening 58 games as opposed to the 58 games that arteta has had
It was not random
I will generally look in some form of peramiter
When doing this kind of thing.
You will find no argument from me that when wenger came in he both transformed a defence that was looking old and beginning to leak and also
Brought a style and verve to the club that had not been seen before.
I was drawing a comparison between an arsenal team under wenger that went out the cup at Leeds
Using 4 players under 23 in that 58 game period yet being praised as a visionary of youth ( we didn’t know what was to come at the time)
As opposed to arteta( who used 4 players under 23) yet are told that he is stifling it.
He picked a team he believed could win the game
As a manager he will stand or fall by such decisions
This business about how such and such would not have got a chance but for injuries and suspension
Such happenstance has gone on in football since time immemorial
If you moan about everything it weakens when you do have a case
That was one of my bugbears with wenger who became a latter day excuse monger
With regards the addressing of points
Does graham not deserve credit for adams and rocastle or wenger for parlour?

[starmandb]

Saka is the only one that’s shown improvement under Arteta.

Martinelli hasn’t, he was equally as good if not better for Emery

Smith Rowe has barely had a game and only got to play due to injuries/suspensions, prior to that Arteta wouldn’t play him in any games other that EL/Caraboa

Nelson hardly plays

Nketiah is pretty poor but is one of Artetas favourites so gets game time

Gabriel I wouldn’t rank as a kid, he developed in France, we signed him as a 1st choice CB

Likewise Tierney, he was a first choice who developed at Celtic

Ceballos has been average and really doesn’t seem to get a run in the team

The point stands, the guy plays his favourites, occasionally a kid comes in but it’s more down to circumstances than decision making.

Saka is the only one that’s shown improvement under Arteta. - not the case.

Martinelli hasn’t, he was equally as good if not better for Emery - he hasn't played because he's been injured / recovering from injury.

Smith Rowe has barely had a game and only got to play due to injuries/suspensions, prior to that Arteta wouldn’t play him in any games other that EL/Caraboa - this is fairly normal. Other big clubs also nurture their good young players in this way.

Nelson hardly plays - because he's not good enough. There are other players to fill that right hand slot. Even Pepe and Willian are better then him.

Nketiah is pretty poor but is one of Artetas favourites so gets game time - because we haven't had any other strikers to fill in.

Gabriel I wouldn’t rank as a kid, he developed in France, we signed him as a 1st choice CB - and he has played well under Arteta.

Likewise Tierney, he was a first choice who developed at Celtic - and he has played well under Arteta.

Ceballos has been average and really doesn’t seem to get a run in the team - you've answered your own question there.

Saka - IMO Saka is the only one

Martinelli - Yes and no, prior to the original lockdown Martinelli was brilliant, after it Arteta didn’t pick him at all and then he got injured, neither here nor there though he hasn’t got any better.

Nelson - Not when they don’t have any options, he should have feature more

Nelson - hardly fair he’s barely got a game, I don’t trust Artetas judgement but Nelson has shown some ability in the past (here and when on loan)

Nketiah - who cares, there are other options as well he could have tried, fact is this guy doesn’t cut it, doesn’t matter how much Arteta likes him

Gabriel & Tierney - whats your point here, they were both first teamed and bought for that, they haven’t improved anyway they’ve just done what they did at their former clubs where they developed, they aren’t kinds in the true sense

Ceballos, yes though considering how bad our midfield is you’d think he’d have got a run, it was Arteta that wanted him on loan again after all

Under arteta martinelli played in 15 games prior to lockdown including the last one West Ham
And the first two after it then got injured
This has been said before but you keep repeating the alternative as fact

[Salibatelli]

Saka is the only one that’s shown improvement under Arteta.

Martinelli hasn’t, he was equally as good if not better for Emery

Smith Rowe has barely had a game and only got to play due to injuries/suspensions, prior to that Arteta wouldn’t play him in any games other that EL/Caraboa

Nelson hardly plays

Nketiah is pretty poor but is one of Artetas favourites so gets game time

Gabriel I wouldn’t rank as a kid, he developed in France, we signed him as a 1st choice CB

Likewise Tierney, he was a first choice who developed at Celtic

Ceballos has been average and really doesn’t seem to get a run in the team

The point stands, the guy plays his favourites, occasionally a kid comes in but it’s more down to circumstances than decision making.

Saka is the only one that’s shown improvement under Arteta. - not the case.

Martinelli hasn’t, he was equally as good if not better for Emery - he hasn't played because he's been injured / recovering from injury.

Smith Rowe has barely had a game and only got to play due to injuries/suspensions, prior to that Arteta wouldn’t play him in any games other that EL/Caraboa - this is fairly normal. Other big clubs also nurture their good young players in this way.

Nelson hardly plays - because he's not good enough. There are other players to fill that right hand slot. Even Pepe and Willian are better then him.

Nketiah is pretty poor but is one of Artetas favourites so gets game time - because we haven't had any other strikers to fill in.

Gabriel I wouldn’t rank as a kid, he developed in France, we signed him as a 1st choice CB - and he has played well under Arteta.

Likewise Tierney, he was a first choice who developed at Celtic - and he has played well under Arteta.

Ceballos has been average and really doesn’t seem to get a run in the team - you've answered your own question there.

Saka - IMO Saka is the only one

Martinelli - Yes and no, prior to the original lockdown Martinelli was brilliant, after it Arteta didn’t pick him at all and then he got injured, neither here nor there though he hasn’t got any better.

Nelson - Not when they don’t have any options, he should have feature more

Nelson - hardly fair he’s barely got a game, I don’t trust Artetas judgement but Nelson has shown some ability in the past (here and when on loan)

Nketiah - who cares, there are other options as well he could have tried, fact is this guy doesn’t cut it, doesn’t matter how much Arteta likes him

Gabriel & Tierney - whats your point here, they were both first teamed and bought for that, they haven’t improved anyway they’ve just done what they did at their former clubs where they developed, they aren’t kinds in the true sense

Ceballos, yes though considering how bad our midfield is you’d think he’d have got a run, it was Arteta that wanted him on loan again after all

Under arteta martinelli played in 15 games prior to lockdown including the last one West Ham
And the first two after it then got injured
This has been said before but you keep repeating the alternative as fact

He featured in EL games mostly, most other appearances were sub appearances actually, he only played solidly when Auba was suspended and he then excelled only to be dropped after lockdown and then getting injured.

I think his progress seems to be stallIng right now anyway.

[theHotHead]

Absolute nonsense about wenger fielding youth in his first 58 games
Bit fed up posting comparisons
They get ignored only for the same shit to keep being repeated

The random facts you post lack context. I can't see where anyone says Wenger was fielding youth in his first 58 games. Also, the Academy system Wenger inherited wasn't the same as what what Arteta has. We weren't producing British attacking talent like Smith Rowe and Saka. We were way behind other European clubs in that area which is why Wenger spent his early years poaching young players from other clubs. Also, Wenger wasn't struggling to establish an attacking brand of football and this wasn't his first job. The comparisons are a bit redundant with some sort of context.

I haven’t seen you address this post from PNG Starman?

Angelito spoke of youth under wenger’s vision
I felt it worth looking at wengers youth policy in his opening 58 games as opposed to the 58 games that arteta has had
It was not random
I will generally look in some form of peramiter
When doing this kind of thing.
You will find no argument from me that when wenger came in he both transformed a defence that was looking old and beginning to leak and also
Brought a style and verve to the club that had not been seen before.
I was drawing a comparison between an arsenal team under wenger that went out the cup at Leeds
Using 4 players under 23 in that 58 game period yet being praised as a visionary of youth ( we didn’t know what was to come at the time)
As opposed to arteta( who used 4 players under 23) yet are told that he is stifling it.
He picked a team he believed could win the game
As a manager he will stand or fall by such decisions
This business about how such and such would not have got a chance but for injuries and suspension
Such happenstance has gone on in football since time immemorial
If you moan about everything it weakens when you do have a case
That was one of my bugbears with wenger who became a latter day excuse monger
With regards the addressing of points
Does graham not deserve credit for adams and rocastle or wenger for parlour?

I take your point Starmandb but I will say this; when Wenger arrived the club was stale, but the team was littered with quality. If you look at the players Wenger played in his first season (10+ league appearances only):
Seaman, Dixon, Winterburn, bould, Adams, Platt, Wright, Merson, Bergkamp, Linighan, Keown, Parlour, Hartson, Morrow, Lukic, S Hughes.

Wenger brought in Vieira and Garde who both made more than 10 league appearances and Anelka in February who made league 4 appearances.

Contrast that to Arteta, the team he inherited wasn't a patch on the team Wenger inherited, Wenger didn't need to play kids, all he did was polish the diamond (the team) he already had. So the comparison with what Wenger did in his first 58 games isn't suited to Arteta's scenario, the context is entirely different.

[starmandb]

Saka is the only one that’s shown improvement under Arteta.

Martinelli hasn’t, he was equally as good if not better for Emery

Smith Rowe has barely had a game and only got to play due to injuries/suspensions, prior to that Arteta wouldn’t play him in any games other that EL/Caraboa

Nelson hardly plays

Nketiah is pretty poor but is one of Artetas favourites so gets game time

Gabriel I wouldn’t rank as a kid, he developed in France, we signed him as a 1st choice CB

Likewise Tierney, he was a first choice who developed at Celtic

Ceballos has been average and really doesn’t seem to get a run in the team

The point stands, the guy plays his favourites, occasionally a kid comes in but it’s more down to circumstances than decision making.

Saka is the only one that’s shown improvement under Arteta. - not the case.

Martinelli hasn’t, he was equally as good if not better for Emery - he hasn't played because he's been injured / recovering from injury.

Smith Rowe has barely had a game and only got to play due to injuries/suspensions, prior to that Arteta wouldn’t play him in any games other that EL/Caraboa - this is fairly normal. Other big clubs also nurture their good young players in this way.

Nelson hardly plays - because he's not good enough. There are other players to fill that right hand slot. Even Pepe and Willian are better then him.

Nketiah is pretty poor but is one of Artetas favourites so gets game time - because we haven't had any other strikers to fill in.

Gabriel I wouldn’t rank as a kid, he developed in France, we signed him as a 1st choice CB - and he has played well under Arteta.

Likewise Tierney, he was a first choice who developed at Celtic - and he has played well under Arteta.

Ceballos has been average and really doesn’t seem to get a run in the team - you've answered your own question there.

Saka - IMO Saka is the only one

Martinelli - Yes and no, prior to the original lockdown Martinelli was brilliant, after it Arteta didn’t pick him at all and then he got injured, neither here nor there though he hasn’t got any better.

Nelson - Not when they don’t have any options, he should have feature more

Nelson - hardly fair he’s barely got a game, I don’t trust Artetas judgement but Nelson has shown some ability in the past (here and when on loan)

Nketiah - who cares, there are other options as well he could have tried, fact is this guy doesn’t cut it, doesn’t matter how much Arteta likes him

Gabriel & Tierney - whats your point here, they were both first teamed and bought for that, they haven’t improved anyway they’ve just done what they did at their former clubs where they developed, they aren’t kinds in the true sense

Ceballos, yes though considering how bad our midfield is you’d think he’d have got a run, it was Arteta that wanted him on loan again after all

Under arteta martinelli played in 15 games prior to lockdown including the last one West Ham
And the first two after it then got injured
This has been said before but you keep repeating the alternative as fact

He featured in EL games mostly, most other appearances were sub appearances actually, he only played solidly when Auba was suspended and he then excelled only to be dropped after lockdown and then getting injured.

I think his progress seems to be stallIng right now anyway.

Yes I’m sorry
I made a mistake I was looking at all arsenal games pre lockdown rather than just martinelli appearance hence the 15 games
He was actually involved in 9 starting 6
He was straight back after his injury though

[starmandb]

Absolute nonsense about wenger fielding youth in his first 58 games
Bit fed up posting comparisons
They get ignored only for the same shit to keep being repeated

The random facts you post lack context. I can't see where anyone says Wenger was fielding youth in his first 58 games. Also, the Academy system Wenger inherited wasn't the same as what what Arteta has. We weren't producing British attacking talent like Smith Rowe and Saka. We were way behind other European clubs in that area which is why Wenger spent his early years poaching young players from other clubs. Also, Wenger wasn't struggling to establish an attacking brand of football and this wasn't his first job. The comparisons are a bit redundant with some sort of context.

I haven’t seen you address this post from PNG Starman?

Angelito spoke of youth under wenger’s vision
I felt it worth looking at wengers youth policy in his opening 58 games as opposed to the 58 games that arteta has had
It was not random
I will generally look in some form of peramiter
When doing this kind of thing.
You will find no argument from me that when wenger came in he both transformed a defence that was looking old and beginning to leak and also
Brought a style and verve to the club that had not been seen before.
I was drawing a comparison between an arsenal team under wenger that went out the cup at Leeds
Using 4 players under 23 in that 58 game period yet being praised as a visionary of youth ( we didn’t know what was to come at the time)
As opposed to arteta( who used 4 players under 23) yet are told that he is stifling it.
He picked a team he believed could win the game
As a manager he will stand or fall by such decisions
This business about how such and such would not have got a chance but for injuries and suspension
Such happenstance has gone on in football since time immemorial
If you moan about everything it weakens when you do have a case
That was one of my bugbears with wenger who became a latter day excuse monger
With regards the addressing of points
Does graham not deserve credit for adams and rocastle or wenger for parlour?

I take your point Starmandb but I will say this; when Wenger arrived the club was stale, but the team was littered with quality. If you look at the players Wenger played in his first season (10+ league appearances only):
Seaman, Dixon, Winterburn, bould, Adams, Platt, Wright, Merson, Bergkamp, Linighan, Keown, Parlour, Hartson, Morrow, Lukic, S Hughes.

Wenger brought in Vieira and Garde who both made more than 10 league appearances and Anelka in February who made league 4 appearances.

Contrast that to Arteta, the team he inherited wasn't a patch on the team Wenger inherited, Wenger didn't need to play kids, all he did was polish the diamond (the team) he already had. So the comparison with what Wenger did in his first 58 games isn't suited to Arteta's scenario, the context is entirely different.

That is true
But that is more of a reflection of how wenger let things slide in the last 7 years of his tenure
Winning was in the dna of a lot of our players that had played under graham

[theHotHead]

That is true
But that is more of a reflection of how wenger let things slide in the last 7 years of his tenure
Winning was in the dna of a lot of our players that had played under graham

I will maintain, that CL Final loss set a course that led us to where we are now. Instead of putting things into place after the Invincibles that set us up to dominate we let the momentum go. The decision to turn is into some sort of psuedo-Barcelona screwed us up. The move to smaller technical players, the loss of the pace and power we had - vitally important in the PL - has been decisive in our failure. Yes we should've won the league after that but the fact we didn't was becauwe of a loss of mental strength within the team, we had bundles of it throughout the team before.

[Power n Glory]

Absolute nonsense about wenger fielding youth in his first 58 games
Bit fed up posting comparisons
They get ignored only for the same shit to keep being repeated

The random facts you post lack context. I can't see where anyone says Wenger was fielding youth in his first 58 games. Also, the Academy system Wenger inherited wasn't the same as what what Arteta has. We weren't producing British attacking talent like Smith Rowe and Saka. We were way behind other European clubs in that area which is why Wenger spent his early years poaching young players from other clubs. Also, Wenger wasn't struggling to establish an attacking brand of football and this wasn't his first job. The comparisons are a bit redundant with some sort of context.

I haven’t seen you address this post from PNG Starman?

Angelito spoke of youth under wenger’s vision
I felt it worth looking at wengers youth policy in his opening 58 games as opposed to the 58 games that arteta has had
It was not random
I will generally look in some form of peramiter
When doing this kind of thing.
You will find no argument from me that when wenger came in he both transformed a defence that was looking old and beginning to leak and also
Brought a style and verve to the club that had not been seen before.
I was drawing a comparison between an arsenal team under wenger that went out the cup at Leeds
Using 4 players under 23 in that 58 game period yet being praised as a visionary of youth ( we didn’t know what was to come at the time)
As opposed to arteta( who used 4 players under 23) yet are told that he is stifling it.
He picked a team he believed could win the game
As a manager he will stand or fall by such decisions
This business about how such and such would not have got a chance but for injuries and suspension
Such happenstance has gone on in football since time immemorial
If you moan about everything it weakens when you do have a case
That was one of my bugbears with wenger who became a latter day excuse monger
With regards the addressing of points
Does graham not deserve credit for adams and rocastle or wenger for parlour?

It's not really comparable. That Leeds loss happened when Wenger was around 20 games into his Arsenal role which is a signicant difference to having 58 games in charge. Wenger was still getting to know his squad at that point, he didn’t have a summer with them and played most of the first team players. Arteta on the other hand went into the game playing his 2nd string team who have all been struggling. We had to rotate but it was a gamble on underperforming players.

As said, the youth set up wasn’t the same when Wenger arrived. Our first team was already strong and hadn't just finished 8th in the league or sitting bottom of the table for months. Wenger had to buy Anelka and then give him his shot ahead of Wright. A lot was established within his first 58 games and there wasn't this much scepticism on his judgement.

[Angelito]

This is stupid.

Wenger spent the Anelka money in establishing and innovating London Colney.

When Wenger arrived at Arsenal, we were directionless and were stale. Most senior players thought they were over the hill. He transformed the players, the club, and English football.

Along the way, he was known to unearth gems and give chances to young players. The whole debate against him was how loyal he was to his players and how he fielded a team of youngsters without proven leaders.

Why are the goal-posts shifting now?

Arteta joined Arsenal when it was unstable but at its financial best. He had a stellar infrastructure set in place by Wenger and an academy that grew up adopting Wengerball.

Comparing Wenger's first 58 games to Arteta's is a logical fallacy. Wenger walked in, challenged ManU's monopoly, and won the double in his first full season at Arsenal. Never were we this bad under Wenger.

Context just loses itself when it comes to Starman. I'm sorry but that's the truth.

During those austerity years, Wenger didn't moan about not having the finances, nor was he a frantic mess like Arsenal's favorite Klopp is, whenever things don't go his way.

When Arteta defended Willian's signing by stating that you need experience and physicality in the Prem, Gooners were orgasming over the notion that genius Arteta discovered a formula Wenger was unable to.

Right! The same manager who went an entire season unbeaten, was the first in Arsenal's history to reach the UCL Final, built a stadium based on his sheer prowess, and finished in UCL places for two decades didn't have a clue, eh?

Arsenal were a completely different club when Wenger arrived. Today's Arsenal is everything Wenger has built. You can't compare any random manager/coach to the greatest manager the club has ever had. Wenger was a coach, a manager, a DoF, a fan—all in one. Name a manager who's turned down Bayern, Barca, Real, PSG, etc.

Yeah, right.

[starmandb]

That is true
But that is more of a reflection of how wenger let things slide in the last 7 years of his tenure
Winning was in the dna of a lot of our players that had played under graham

I will maintain, that CL Final loss set a course that led us to where we are now. Instead of putting things into place after the Invincibles that set us up to dominate we let the momentum go. The decision to turn is into some sort of psuedo-Barcelona screwed us up. The move to smaller technical players, the loss of the pace and power we had - vitally important in the PL - has been decisive in our failure. Yes we should've won the league after that but the fact we didn't was becauwe of a loss of mental strength within the team, we had bundles of it throughout the team before.

I agree
I was hugely proud of arsenal that night
Despite the defeat
I walked with my son through chapel market head held high expecting the mood to be the same
It was quiet and subdued
Ok we had just lost a final
But we were moving into a new stadium
This would be the first of many champions league finals and we would now have an arena and pulling power that would allow us to continue upwards on a path that wenger had set us on.....
Yes we had this fantastic urbane personality at the helm as well. Onwards and upwards
I really don’t need to labour the point of what happened from here

[starmandb]

Angelito
I really don’t try to randomise
I try to rationalise on what will move us forward now
I still believe wenger to be the best manager I have seen at arsenal but not in the last 7 years of his tenure
To find every reason to moan about the arsenal ( I’m not suggesting for a second you do this)today does not chime with supporting a football club
I have serious doubts about arteta and believe we should go again but to gloss over wengers failures because of some great league cup nights with young players that ended in failure when we came up against other opponents is not as tangible as an fa cup win that arteta achieved in his first year
Not a final/ semi final/ final where in game management let us down on so many occasions
This can happen
It happened to graham when we lost to benfica in the European cup but the pragmatism in George didn’t allow it to keep happening. Wenger never learned from Liverpool in the champions league to Monaco in the champions league wenger allowed gung ho behaviour and his principles to override the importance of going home with the trophy. To say he didn’t moan is laughable
His excuse mongering was a terrible blight and a get out for the players that should never have been accepted

[Ach]

Up to eighth

Played more games than anyone else though

But should be fine from relegation for this season at least.

Also shows how ridiculous it was at the weekend to play a weakened team.

[Phil71]

16 points from the last 6 games.

[ESR10]

With an ESR replacement I believe we could still have a chance at top 4.

Most top teams aren't consistent enough this season.

[KG3]

With an ESR replacement I believe we could still have a chance at top 4.

Most top teams aren't consistent enough this season.

Very optimistic considering certain teams above us have up to 3 games in hand