Granit Xhaka

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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Yago » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:40 pm

I was unable to watch the newcastle game, but I'm not going to suddenly do a 180 because of 1 (or 1/2?) decent game. The goal was nice, but he was playing against Newcastle without much pressure. Unless he can suddenly play well consistently, I'd still rather see Guendouzi start, as he has shown way more in the games I did see (although I gather he had a bad game).
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Sims » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:04 pm

Guendouzi didn’t have a bad game at all imo

His skill set just isn’t complimentary with anyone else in a midfield 2
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:36 am

The only thing Xhaka has over Guendouzi is a rocket left foot shot. He can't defend and he can't attack and he is too slow to cover ground. We also know having a single midfielder covering the defence won't work.

So it's pretty easy, supplement Torreira's defensive skills with the energy of Guendouzi close by, we have only seen cameos of the 2 playing together and Torreira's energy died quickly which suggests he was nowhere near match fit. We have also seen that Torreira is not a standard DM because his first thought is to play a forward pass.

Guendouzi's talent/skillset suggests he should be able to play alongside pretty much any type of CM, he is not one dimensional. Emery should look to get the best out of him. We need pace in midfield and Xhaka has none, that puts too much burden in Torreira
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Sims » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:46 am

Guendouzi doesn’t strike me as a controller who can dictate play which is essential in a 2 man midfield
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Pudpop » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:53 am

Sims wrote:Guendouzi doesn’t strike me as a controller who can dictate play which is essential in a 2 man midfield
I'm pretty sure you are literally the only person who has this opinion
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Sims » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:08 am

I love big Gwen but don’t see how we can be effective in midfield with him unless it’s a 3 man midfield which we’re not gonna play
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby theHotHead » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:05 pm

Why do you think that?? And you are inferring that Xhaka CAN dictate play in a 2 man midfield.

Lets not forget, Guendouzi has easily been our best midfielder (number of good performances) so far this season and he had Xhaka alongside him and still shone - against better teams.
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Zedie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:11 pm

Guendouzi has been dynamic as hell, but I agree he has a lot of experience to catch up on.

He does at times make tactical and positional mistakes which can be avoided, but that comes with experience.

He has a phenomenal passing range , control and ball retention for someone so young, but if you watch him at times he gets sold on tactical movements by the opps a bit too much.

He's too reactionary and can get sucked in by movement or just chase the ball too much instead of focusing on his positional role and where he should be.

All to be expected from a 19 year old coming from ligue 2 tbf. He defo has the ability in spades but could do well to study torriera' s discipline and positional awareness, because that's exactly where he needs to be.
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Sims » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:16 pm

he can. sky posted a good couple of stats about granit highlighting his huge defensive flaws but also how integral he was to our play going forward. he was in the top 5 players in the league in terms of build up contribution:

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his skillset is unique in our squad, a very progressive passer of the ball and is consistently able to get the ball from deep into the final third. for me personally guendouzi has an exceptional future, and you could make the argument that hes been our best midfielder so far easily

on the otherhand i think we function better as a team with xhaka & torreira in midfield, and i personally believe the latter is the most important.

is xhaka worth the flaws he has, not really. but when you have literally no other player who has his skillset in midfield, one that emery demands & is vital for our cogs to keep going, then he has to play

theres a reason why hes stayed on the pitch in the last few games with torreira came on, even though he played for 90mins 4 days prior whilst guendouzi was having a break

im questioning a lot of emery's decisions so far but starting a xhaka - torreria midfield from here on out wont be one of them
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Ach » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:18 pm

LegendaryKeown wrote:Sims back on the Xhaka train?

Seems like it. Amazing what one goal can do.
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby DiamondGooner » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:11 pm

Pudpop wrote:
Sims wrote:Guendouzi doesn’t strike me as a controller who can dictate play which is essential in a 2 man midfield
I'm pretty sure you are literally the only person who has this opinion


Agreed, sims is back on the weed.
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby DiamondGooner » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:12 pm

Ach wrote:
LegendaryKeown wrote:Sims back on the Xhaka train?

Seems like it. Amazing what one goal can do.


You've just summed up girouds career.
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:15 am

@ Sims - I think that stat is very misleading. Based on what I see from Xhaka, its either very simple passes or clipped long ball passes that half of the time get intercepted. Considering Guendouzi and Torreira have to cover for Xhaka defensively I don't think his contribution offensively is worth anything. Who is to say that if you gave Guendouzi the same license to ignore some of his defensive responsibility he wouldn't be able to contribute more offensively if Torreira picks up the slack - like he does when he played alongside Xhaka?

According to the Premier League stats Guendouzi has had 3 shots and hit the target once, Xhaka has had 4 and hit the target twice. Guen has played I think 16 accurate long balls compared to 27 for Xhaka. Given Guendouzi's other better (like defensive duties) abilities I don't see any benefit to Xhaka playing instead of Guen - if Torreira is the main DM
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Pudpop » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:51 am

theHotHead wrote:@ Sims - I think that stat is very misleading.


The stat isn't actually misleading here (although it should be showing p90mins instead of total). Xhaka's distribution is a major part of a lot of our attacking play and has been in the last two seasons:

2017/18
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2016/17
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The last column here is about Expected Buildup, which is just a term which totals all the shots where the player was involved in the buildup, but not the key pass or the shot itself, then gives it per 90 minutes. Expected Goal Chain (second to last column) is the same thing but includes key passes and shots themselves.

What this stat means is that, aside from the Man City players, Xhaka was involved in the buildup to more shots (when weighted for quality of opportunity, ie expected goals) per 90 mins than any other player in the league last season, backing up what Sims was getting at.

The problem I have with what Sims keeps saying is that he insists on saying that Xhaka is the only player in our squad who can do this. That's patently untrue. His stats are impressive, but by no means above the abilities of our other central midfielders. In 2015/16 over the course of 800 minutes Elneny had similar stats to what Xhaka has produced this season and last:

EDIT: I cut off the headings accidentally. The stats are minutes played, key passes per 90, expected assists, expected assists per 90, expected goal chain per 90 and expected goal buildup per 90.
2015/16:
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2018/19:
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There is no reason to believe our other central midfielders can't do what Xhaka is doing now in terms of dictating play (at least, no statistical reason). More relevant to the debate, the stats between Xhaka and Guendouzi show that there isn't sufficient evidence to say that Guendouzi can't do what Xhaka is doing based on this season's performances. The stats in the second picture are different, but not majorly so, especially when you consider the fact that 180 out of Guendouzi's 357 minutes came against City and Chelsea, while 270 out of Xhaka's 392 came in our last 3 games. In terms of creating chances there's no statistical reason to choose Xhaka over Matteo.

Where there is a significant difference, however, is defensively. Guendouzi is visibly and statistically superior to Xhaka in this respect. In fact, Matteo has been statistically the best in the team this season:

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And this backs up what everyone except Sims has been saying. Matteo has the offensive distribution skills to challenge Xhaka and the defensive abilities to put him to shame.

EDIT: data from understat.com and whoscored.com
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Re: Granit Xhaka (34)

Postby Sims » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:09 pm

Stats can’t measure a players ability to garner space and their intelligence on the pitch though

Multiple times last game Xhaka had to point at Guendouzi where to go, off the ball both offensively and defensively he isn’t great. It’s fine, you wouldn’t expect a 19 year old midfielder to have that in their locker, last time we saw that it was Cesc a Fàbregas, even Wilshere in that one season suffered from it a lot

We’ll see how it pans out, at the minute our options aren’t ideal but they’re passable. At least it’s better than Spurs’ midfield options I guess, a reason why I think we’ll probs finish above them
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