2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Royal Gooner » Tue May 14, 2024 11:18 pm

But we still finished this season with a trophy so it is not all bad.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Highbury Hillbilly » Tue May 14, 2024 11:50 pm

StockGooner wrote:
Agree or disagree on certain elements of his management, but I don't see how anyone could say wiht almost certainty he won't win the title with us? Or that it's multiple seasons of failing to achieve the goal.

What exactly was the goal for us? Was it Champions League football? Was it a title challenge? Or was it a title and anything less is failure?


I personally would say his second and third seasons were failures without a doubt. Compared to Klopp's 2nd season, 4 places and 16 points is a lot but Klopp was a better manager on day one of his job than Arteta was. Arteta's 2nd full season was also a failure, throwing 4th place away with losses to Tottenham and Newcastle.

But since then, we had a title challenge where quite frankly we threw the opportunity away badly, naively. This year has been more sustained and solid, but we're losing the title through one, just one bad result across a season. We have to be near perfect to win the title, and we havent been, but we're getting closer and closer. What can there be to suggest we won't win a title?


Good question. For the first 3 years, Arteta and Edu refused to set down hard targets. It was just 'trust the process' ad infinitum. Ofc there was the infamous Willian quote where Arteta told him we'd win the league in 3 years (2023) and the CL in the 4th (2024).

I can't deny that we've done very well the last 2 years, but we've spent a fortune to get here and I can see us plateauing unless we manage to sign established WC players instead of trying to win the "best young team" award.

I don't mind Arteta continuing in the job if we can get a proper DoF. A steady hand guiding transfers might have won us the league by redirecting the ~ £200m on Zinchenko, Viera, Jesus and Havertz to more productive uses.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Gordon Bennit » Wed May 15, 2024 12:28 am

I'm proud of this season and don't see us plateauing at all. The players listed were signed over 2 windows and I think Jesus was a huge part in our improvement last season with Zinchenko making a decent, albeit lesser, contribution. It was clear that we were signing winners who were an upgrade on what we had. This season, Havertz has had a good, at times very good season. while the unmentioned Rice has been awesome. Vieira may well be filed under Pepe etc but unlike a financially doped side, we can't just chuckle at a Kalvin Phillips scenario and will have to suck it up.

There have been some shockers like trying Partey at right back or an ego trip with Rice in defence but as we have a manager who has led us to consecutive runners up, I think he deserves more time and another window, complete with CL money.

Compare that to a supposed rival who celebrated their confirmed membership of the 'Thursday Sunday Club.'

I'm just so happy to see us back where we should be. The third (no problem but factual) most successful club in English history, challenging for the title once more.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Highbury Hillbilly » Wed May 15, 2024 12:36 am

Gordon Bennit wrote:I'm proud of this season and don't see us plateauing at all. The players listed were signed over 2 windows and I think Jesus was a huge part in our improvement last season with Zinchenko making a decent, albeit lesser, contribution. It was clear that we were signing winners who were an upgrade on what we had. This season, Havertz has had a good, at times very good season. while the unmentioned Rice has been awesome. Vieira may well be filed under Pepe etc but unlike a financially doped side, we can't just chuckle at a Kalvin Phillips scenario and will have to suck it up.

There have been some shockers like trying Partey at right back or an ego trip with Rice in defence but as we have a manager who has led us to consecutive runners up, I think he deserves more time and another window, complete with CL money.

Compare that to a supposed rival who celebrated their confirmed membership of the 'Thursday Sunday Club.'

I'm just so happy to see us back where we should be. The third (no problem but factual) most successful club in English history, challenging for the title once more.


Jesus did OK last season, absolute pants this season. Neither of those make him in any way the Auba replacement we needed.

Havertz has just about scraped past Pepe's first season numbers, playing in a significantly stronger team and needing a pity penalty to get off the mark.

This is what I mean by plateauing. Jesus and Havertz combined make £500k pw. We're not winning anything with them.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby alexis2015finalgoal » Wed May 15, 2024 12:43 am

Royal Gooner wrote:But we still finished this season with a trophy so it is not all bad.


FIFA or the record books might deem the Community Shield a trophy. but it's not really.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Royal Gooner » Wed May 15, 2024 7:29 am

alexis2015finalgoal wrote:
Royal Gooner wrote:But we still finished this season with a trophy so it is not all bad.


FIFA or the record books might deem the Community Shield a trophy. but it's not really.


It is an official trophy run by The FA, it has a Wembley Final and if you look in our programmes, it goes on our official honours board. It is a trophy.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Salibatelli » Wed May 15, 2024 8:03 am

StockGooner wrote:Never gets us over the line suggests it is a repeating cycle or pattern. I would say he's soon going to have had three seasons where we could make judgement on performance, and I don't think a sample of three is enough to call something a pattern.


I don’t agree, there’s a definite pattern of not finishing the job if we don’t this season, as I said it was in our hands with a few games to go but we lost at home which handed the initiative back to the opposition, usually Champions go on a run and slip up.

StockGooner wrote: The 5th place finish and last season could arguably be 'not getting us over the line' I will agree there. But this season isn't that at all. We've sustained a title challenge through to the final day against a City team who have possibly one of the greatest league coaches of all time, backed by a bottomless pit of money when they want a player. Last year, were ANY of us expecting a title challenge? I would suggest no, so we can't move goalposts entirely. I will allow us to be disappointed we didn't win it based on where we were going into Matchday 28, since I myself was disappointed/devastated. So yes we couldn't get over the line, but realistically we couldn't see that line on Matchday 1 so to say it's 'not getting us over the line' would be to ignore our original expectations.


There it is, the excuse, best coach and bottomless pit of money. Firstly we’ve outspent them for a good few years and we’ve spent huge amounts, the money excuse doesn’t work.

As for the coach, Wenger beat the best manager around Ferguson, Ancelotti has been beaten to the punch, even Mourinho in his prime was, if you can’t do it then clearly you’re not good enough, we’re not here to be runners up every season and say that the opposition is too good, if they’re too good by definition the players and manager aren’t good enough.

Did we expect a challenge, no because noone rated Arteta, so why would day, but having got there we should have got over the line. Did Leicester fans expect a title challenge, no but they did it and won it, no excuses about the other teams being too good. Likewise Chelsea when they won it last.

StockGooner wrote: You make so many excuses for us when we do well, repeatedly. We've had injured players this year as well, all teams have, so I'm not having that and tbh I'm not even going into it since it's a silly argument.


It’s not an excuse it’s a fact, look at the injuries other clubs have had and look at ours, majority of our core has been fit all season, injuries have definitely worked in our favour, that’s undeniable.

StockGooner wrote: Arteta is 4 and a half years into management. You say 'he's a manager that never gets it over the line' but equally 'he's a manager that sustained two title challenges and is getting closer to winning it'. You're not right, neither is the other sentiment, but you're so damn certain he's failing whereas the other statement allows flexibility which is why when you're wrong you never admit to it since you're so staunch in your stance. What were you expecting 4 years ago exactly? If you say a title and anything less is failure, then I don't really know what to say back.

Personally, I would have said 4 years ago I would like us competing for big name signings, back in the Champions League, a comfortable 3rd position, vying for 2nd and withing touching distance of (Inevitably) Manchester City and not being embarassed in games against the top 6 like we used to. We got into the Champions League a year too late for my liking, but two title challenges has kept me happy, albeit disappointed last year.


Last season we collapsed and ended up a fair way behind (would have been more had City not had the CL final and relaxed), this season it’s a lot closer, but sustained challenge doesn’t mean a lot if you don’t pick up trophies along the line. Other managers don’t just have one competition they do well it, they do well in others too, getting to finals, winning cups all whilst challenging too, this one prongued approach is let’s face it easier, less games, more breaks, you’re basically operating at an advantage over those teams that progress to the latter stages of more competitions.

I would have expected more personally, after 4 1/2 years with the level of investment we’ve seen, I’d have expected a title or CL, at worst challenges, finals and a cup win or two, some sign we can actually get over the line. I would say that 4 1/2 years is a long time and for me I would have expected big prizes and certainly to have been playing in the CL before this season.

StockGooner wrote: I like your argument on Wenger, I think it's really telling. I would say Wenger came in with a philosophy so alien to English football that it really took the league and United by surprise. You had new science, nutrition, young energetic players in Vieira and extending the legs of the back four another year or two. That Unique Selling Point that Wenger had, was eventually caught up by every team as they saw the impact and then eventually the league came into money. Very few teams now can find that niche. Klopp had the Gegenpress which is good for a season or two then it shows. Mourinho seemed to push and push his teams and treat certain players terribly, then it would all come crashing down one season, hence the repeated sackings. Brighton have a great scouting network, but they are eternally a selling club. Barcelona can maybe say they have La Masia, but these are all few and far between. Arteta might not have that individualistic item that he can say is his defining characteristic like Wenger did, but not everyone does.

Also, we also forget that in the years following 1997/98 we lost the league title by 1 point, then 18 and then by 10. So if last year was a failure for Arteta what was finishing 2nd 18 points behind the winner?


Wenger came in, energised the squad and players, signed the right players and then won the title, the impact was almost instant, I go back to Leicester who also did the same.

Arteta has had plenty enough to find the right players, the reality is he hasn’t and that’s why we’ve crashed out of cups and not got over the line,

That’s the thing, noone was happy when we lost the title by a point of came second, we were gutted, we didn’t say we didn’t win but were up against a team and manager that were too good, second was failure.

It didn’t go wrong for Wenger because of money and people catching up, it went wrong because he abandoned his principles in favour of trying to become a mini Barcelona based around signing young players.

Gone were the dynamic, pacey, powerful players and on came small, technicL players who just passed the ball around, gone were the top DMs and strikers and in their place passers and players who brought others into play but were poor finishers.

The stadium also hampered him to some extent, but his own stubborness, the way he changed his philosophy so drastically and also fazed out winners so quickly leaving the young players with noone to learn from.

Wenger could have won a whole lot more, instead he chose to become and economist, who used copycat methods and settled for 4th place as it if was a major achievement.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby alexis2015finalgoal » Wed May 15, 2024 12:23 pm

Royal Gooner wrote:
alexis2015finalgoal wrote:
Royal Gooner wrote:But we still finished this season with a trophy so it is not all bad.


FIFA or the record books might deem the Community Shield a trophy. but it's not really.


It is an official trophy run by The FA, it has a Wembley Final and if you look in our programmes, it goes on our official honours board. It is a trophy.

Yes, I know that. But it's the least favourable of the trophies, and few count it as a trophy in reality.

We've won 31 trophies overall. it's only nearly 50 if we count the charity/community shields, which most do not.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby theHotHead » Wed May 15, 2024 12:27 pm

The Community Shield is not a major honour, it never was and it will only be when its marketed as one and the outlook to the match has changed. Calling it the Super Cup would change things but as it stands its just a game that makes money for charitable causes
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Ach » Wed May 15, 2024 12:37 pm

Couldn't care less about the community shield. Pre season friendly and a day out for the fans.

Never seen it as a trophy. Never counted it in wengers trophy haul during the good years and didn't during shit wenger era
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby 22-0 » Wed May 15, 2024 12:41 pm

They're just friendlies yes.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby TedLasso » Wed May 15, 2024 12:43 pm

theHotHead wrote:The Community Shield is not a major honour, it never was and it will only be when its marketed as one and the outlook to the match has changed. Calling it the Super Cup would change things but as it stands its just a game that makes money for charitable causes


It's a nice bit of silverware but yeah, no one really cares about it. Still, wild to me that you make more prize money by losing it than you do winning the league cup.

Looking forward to winning it again next year though.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby PairyGrows » Wed May 15, 2024 12:44 pm

There are many signs pointing to The Process™ plateauing. Arteta has been running his key players to the ground over the last three seasons, which is bound to lead to fatigue and injuries sooner rather than later. Our hands will likely be tied somewhat this summer; since our wage bill is already bloated, we have to sell before we buy, which is easier said than done given the wages some of our players are on. On top of all this, the team has won nothing together, and all their formative experiences as a group are close calls and bitter disappointments.

Rather than expecting more linear progress next season, we should keep in mind that decline is also possible, if not likely given the aforementioned factors working against us. I wonder what going backwards next season would entail; like I said, the team would have been carrying a fair bit of baggage already, and adding a season of regression on top of it all could and most likely would have implications for the future.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby Highbury Hillbilly » Wed May 15, 2024 1:24 pm

PairyGrows wrote:There are many signs pointing to The Process™ plateauing. Arteta has been running his key players to the ground over the last three seasons, which is bound to lead to fatigue and injuries sooner rather than later. Our hands will likely be tied somewhat this summer; since our wage bill is already bloated, we have to sell before we buy, which is easier said than done given the wages some of our players are on. On top of all this, the team has won nothing together, and all their formative experiences as a group are close calls and bitter disappointments.

Rather than expecting more linear progress next season, we should keep in mind that decline is also possible, if not likely given the aforementioned factors working against us. I wonder what going backwards next season would entail; like I said, the team would have been carrying a fair bit of baggage already, and adding a season of regression on top of
it all could and most likely would have implications for the future.


Agreed with a lot of this. The main risks that might bring on plateauing or decline IMO are:

FFP - We've spent very heavily the past 3 years, and not managed to sell much at all. We will probably sell ESR and Ramsdale, and likely spend more in buying replacements. We also have to deal with the fact that our squad now has most players on £150k, many on £200k pw as well, far more than what was the case pre-Arteta.

Lack of Silverware - The current squad has grown up together, but haven't won anything. We've managed to renew most contracts on high wages, but at some point the top players will want to leave if there isn't a clear path to trophies.

Squad Depth - A massive problem, one that probably cost us a title. We have too many players who are rarely used, and can't perform at a high level. Viera, Nelson, Nketiah, Zinchenko, Elneny, Kiwior to name a few. These aren't cheap players either, Nelson and Nketiah are on £100k pw. The lack of promoted players from the academy add to the problem.
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Re: 2023/24 Premier League Arsenal Season

Postby alexis2015finalgoal » Wed May 15, 2024 1:30 pm

With CL money and more TV monies from finishing higher in the table, that should offset FFP. Most likely Adidas, Emirates, etc. might pay us more for being in the CL.
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