Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby Angelito » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:57 pm

theHotHead wrote:Swipey, we are not Spurs, we are the third most successful team in English football history. We won't do a Spurs, we win stuff, always have. in the last 10 years, as shit as we have been, we have won 4 major trophies !!

We are not that far off challenging, I don't agree with the decade that was mentioned by Ang or 5 years by Jay, we could in all honesty challenge next season if we pick up 2 to 3 players we need and a decent manager.


And, who is going to hire that "decent" manager? Roman Abramovich?

As I've said before, if we hired a world class manager, and backed him as much as we've backed Arteta, we could have a go.

This club shoved Wenger out, hired an inferior manager in Emery, whilst promising a new, European model, dismantled that, and has reverted back to a pseudo-prototype of Wenger-Gazidis years. Nobody has a clue what they're going here.

I don't see us challenging for the league title for a decade at the very least for reasons I've already mentioned in my initial post here.

Sure, if Mohammed bin Salman bought Arsenal and hired a top-notch management team, we'd be challenging for the league within two seasons. That's not the case.

Those fantasies don't work. Again, as I mentioned previously, Kroenkes have no desire to challenge for the league. If they did, they wouldn't be going about business in the manner they have been since Wenger. They didn't care as long as Wenger was qualifying for the UCL.

They didn't have an ounce of nuance when Gazidis started that "cold war" with Wenger after Leicester won the title. They backed Gazidis over Wenger. They forced Wenger out. What then happened? Gazidis weaseled out as soon as he could.

Today, Arteta has the safest job in the world. If he finishes 8th again, he's not getting sacked. Instead, he'd get a new contract.

So, who is supposed to hire that "decent" manager? Certainly not Florentino Perez.

To challenge for the league, you need owners who drive that ambition. At Arsenal, we haven't seen any evidence of that since the Kroenkes became majority shareholders at the club.

Dare I say, if there would be no backlash and no implications, Arsenal (and Spurs) would abandon English football and become permanent parts of the super league. Because these two clubs, as of now, don't care about winning titles. That can't be said about City, Chelsea, Liverpool, or ManU.

You're imagining a fantastic world where Kroenkes would hire a quality manager, a visionary DoF, and allow them to achieve for Arsenal. Evidence shows, that's not the case.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby ag6789 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:08 pm

Winning the league or CL is not entirely on the manager. Even the greatest manager will fail if his top players lack ambition. The individual players need to have the desire to be better than his current self.
As it says' genius is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration,'. That's why van Galle couldn't do it at ManU whereas he had been successful elsewhere. Same with Mou and others. All a top manager can do is to bring some consistency in performance , but to win, you need individual desire from within.
There will always be top 3-4 teams of equal caliber, like in Tennis, ( Roger, Nadal, Djokovic, etc) , so it will always come down to individual strength of the mind to achieve the ultimate goal.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby DiamondGooner » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:47 am

jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Since I have been an Arsenal fan we have not bought the most expensive players but we have been able to compete. I don't think that argument is valid, there are plenty of good players out there, there always have been - even when fans kept claiming there were not.

You just have to look at Lokonga and Tomiyasu, players like them are all over the place, we just need to find them and buy them, its not hard. We don't need to buy the most expensive players to be competitive


Which is what we've done.
But replacing the entire team in one or even two windows is not possible.
Great start with 6 brought in, plus Gabriel and Tierney... but these players will get better over time. They will not win us the league this year.

We're embarking on the correct strategy but it will take time before we are realistic challengers for the title.


I like our recent buys but there are still fundamental issues the manager is not addressing for us to be successful.

1- Firstly his reluctance to improve the first choice starting 11 (Midfield & Strikers, we all know Xhaka is waltzing back in).

2- His system - the possession for possession sake slowing up our attack and allowing our opponents to get back into defence and wait for us is harming our chances of scoring.

3 -Formation, we've played 3 formations in two weeks, he should know what he wants by now, we've played 4-2-3-1 / 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3 in the last 3 games, to be successful and consistent the players need to perfect a way of playing.

Until those 3 things are sorted we'll come undone against decent teams.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby Arsenal Tone » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:39 am

GK Ramsdale, ???
RB Tomiyasu, ???
LB Tierney, Tavares
RCB White, Saliba
LCB Gabriel, ???
DM ???, ???
CM Partey, Lokonga
CAM Odegaard/Smith Rowe
LW Saka, Martinelli
RW ???, Pepe (Smith Rowe/Odegaard?)
CF ???, ???

Seven or eight players are needed imo. Some of the squad players might come internally from players like Ballard, Azeez, Patino and Balogun.

But if we sign top players for DM (in January) and CF (next summer when Auba/Laca go) then we could really start competing.

Odegaard, Smith Rowe and Pepe are all good enough to fill that RW spot imo. But to really transform us another top WF (Saka can play left or right) would take us to another level again and give us more options to rotate and change formations/tactics.

Players like Leno, Auba and Laca are on their way out and aren't the future. I'd be happy with Xhaka as a squad player as cover for the DM if he'd be happy with that.

Players like Chambers, Holding, Cedric and Elneny are a level below what we need as squad players. They have likely reached their peak and need to move on.
Raya/Ramsdale
White/Tomiyasu--Saliba/Timber--Gabriel/Kiwior--???/Zinchenko
???/Jorginho
Odegaard/Smith Rowe----Rice/???
Saka/Jesus-------------------Martinelli/Trossard
???/Havertz
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby swipe right » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:18 am

There are no match winners in our squad. The guy who will rise to the occasion and snatch three points at the death isn’t there. Closest is Odegard and he’s got some more time to develop before he becomes the clutch player we need.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:07 am

jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Since I have been an Arsenal fan we have not bought the most expensive players but we have been able to compete. I don't think that argument is valid, there are plenty of good players out there, there always have been - even when fans kept claiming there were not.

You just have to look at Lokonga and Tomiyasu, players like them are all over the place, we just need to find them and buy them, its not hard. We don't need to buy the most expensive players to be competitive


Which is what we've done.
But replacing the entire team in one or even two windows is not possible.
Great start with 6 brought in, plus Gabriel and Tierney... but these players will get better over time. They will not win us the league this year.

We're embarking on the correct strategy but it will take time before we are realistic challengers for the title.

Jay he could change far more if he wanted to, there are umpteen players he could've cut but refused to. I will do a comparison of clubs to show what I mean, not including players coming back from loan or going out on loan:

Leicester:
Ranieri 2015, 8 players in, 2 players out. 2016, 6 players in, 6 players out.
2017, 9 players in, 3 players out
2018, 7 players in, 5 players out
Rodgers 2019, 5 players in, 3 players out,

Everton:
2015, 8 players in, 5 players out
2016, 7 players in, 5 players out
2017, 9 players in, 10 players out
2018, 4 players in, 5 players out
2019, 6 players in, 10 players out
2020, 6 players in, 5 players out

Liverpool (all Klopp):
2015, 9 players in, 8 players out
2016, 6 players in, 10 players out
2017, 6 players in, 5 players out
2018, 4 players in, 6 players out

Spurs:
Pochetino 2014, 7 players in, 10 players out. 2015, 5 players in, 16 players out !! 2016, 5 players in, 5 players out. 2017, 5 players in, 5 players out.
Mourinho 2020, 7 players in, 2 players out.

Arsenal since Wenger:
2018, 6 players in, 5 players out.
2019, 8 players in, 11 players out
2020, 8 players in, 6 players out
2021, 6 players in, 2 players out

Jay when you look at all of the above you cannot tell me we can't bring in more players than we have and get rid of more players. Ok, we brought in 6 players so far, no problem with that, how can you argue that we couldn't have done more to get rid of more players ?!!! in the 3 windows Arteta has had the squad could be completely different from that which Emery had, if he wanted it to be, history has shown that plenty of players have come and gone in single seasons, where there was a desire to do so.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:12 am

Angelito wrote:
And, who is going to hire that "decent" manager? Roman Abramovich?


Well, thats the issue, I know, but my point was more a statement about where we are right now, getting tot he next stage/level is a different matter.
Last edited by theHotHead on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:05 am

HH, Edu's and Arteta 's transfer business is bloody fantastic after a couple of veteran player mistakes.

Given one of both have brought in Tierney, Gabriel, Lokonga, Partey, White, Tomiyasu, Ramsdale, Tavares, Martinelli and Odegaard PLUS we've seen the emergence of ESR and Saka become a full international... I am very happy with the business they are doing and the team they are building. It's very exciting for the coming years.

Some mistakes too... Willian, Auba contract, Xhaka contract, Luiz, Soares, Mari.. but the positives far outweigh the mistakes.

There was no way we were going to be title challenges within 3 years of Emery leaving. No way at all without spending an absolute fortune.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby 22-0 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:38 am

I dont consider the FA cup a major trophy.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:58 am

Arteta told the Kroenkes we could win the CL in 3 years Jay .. so he must've felt it possible for us to challenge or he is a bare-faced liar.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:18 am

theHotHead wrote:Arteta told the Kroenkes we could win the CL in 3 years Jay .. so he must've felt it possible for us to challenge or he is a bare-faced liar.


He might very well think it's possible to win the CL in 3 years.
It's a cup competition. Even Spurs almost won it.
Winning the PL is a whole lot harder.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby Salibatelli » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:50 am

Sorry but the CL isn’t just a normal cup competition, it’s got a group stage and more importantly two legged ties later in the competition.

It’s only been won by top sides, the only exception is Porto but why had won the UEFA cup and had Mourinho during his finest period.

If you say you’re going to win the CL it suggests you have a pretty strong side.

The CL is very hard to win, harder to win than the league, we’ve never won it and even the best sides have only won it a handful of times other than Real. If it’s wasn’t that hard we’d have won it.

Spurs also challenged for the league not so long ago.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:13 pm

DiamondGooner wrote:
I like our recent buys but there are still fundamental issues the manager is not addressing for us to be successful.

1- Firstly his reluctance to improve the first choice starting 11 (Midfield & Strikers, we all know Xhaka is waltzing back in).

2- His system - the possession for possession sake slowing up our attack and allowing our opponents to get back into defence and wait for us is harming our chances of scoring.

3 -Formation, we've played 3 formations in two weeks, he should know what he wants by now, we've played 4-2-3-1 / 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3 in the last 3 games, to be successful and consistent the players need to perfect a way of playing.

Until those 3 things are sorted we'll come undone against decent teams.

Exactly DG, you can replace the entire squad but if you keep picking the wrong players, in the wrong system and wrong formation, you will be on a hiding to nothing and the changes won't provide anywhere near the level of change they should provide. Like buying a car and never taking it over 3000 revs.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:15 pm

Arsenal Tone wrote:GK Ramsdale, ???
RB Tomiyasu, ???
LB Tierney, Tavares
RCB White, Saliba
LCB Gabriel, ???
DM ???, ???
CM Partey, Lokonga
CAM Odegaard/Smith Rowe
LW Saka, Martinelli
RW ???, Pepe (Smith Rowe/Odegaard?)
CF ???, ???

Seven or eight players are needed imo. Some of the squad players might come internally from players like Ballard, Azeez, Patino and Balogun.

But if we sign top players for DM (in January) and CF (next summer when Auba/Laca go) then we could really start competing.

Odegaard, Smith Rowe and Pepe are all good enough to fill that RW spot imo. But to really transform us another top WF (Saka can play left or right) would take us to another level again and give us more options to rotate and change formations/tactics.

Players like Leno, Auba and Laca are on their way out and aren't the future. I'd be happy with Xhaka as a squad player as cover for the DM if he'd be happy with that.

Players like Chambers, Holding, Cedric and Elneny are a level below what we need as squad players. They have likely reached their peak and need to move on.

Imagine if ESR, Odegaard, Pepe and Saka start chipping in with the goals they are good enough to be scoring !! then imagine Laca and Auba scoring half the goals they should be scoring. Arsenal would be in an entirely different position. There is no way the players I listed should be struggling to score goals.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:24 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Arteta told the Kroenkes we could win the CL in 3 years Jay .. so he must've felt it possible for us to challenge or he is a bare-faced liar.


He might very well think it's possible to win the CL in 3 years.
It's a cup competition. Even Spurs almost won it.
Winning the PL is a whole lot harder.

There is a reason we have only been to one European Cup/Champions League final Jay, to win it you have to beat the cream of the crop in Europe over 2 legs. We got close but no cigar. Spurs got close but no cigar. If winning it was easier why have we won 6 league titles since the inception of the European Cup and reached the EC/CL final just once ?!
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