Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby VCC » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:38 am

Should of called this the standard 3 players short thread lol,
Next 5 games will tell where we are at and if we have the right resource leading,
The players are there Europe should be an easy target, top 4 not so every top club has strengthened, or structured better. The PL is a rolling stone and we stood still for too long and now pay the price, we have been 3 players dhort for over 10 years
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby swipe right » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:53 am

Let me ask you guys a simple question. If you were serious about rebuilding Arsenal and fixing its perennial problems would you hire Vinai, Edu and Arteta to do the job? No disrespect to them but they have zero experience in any kind of a rebuild.

Were I serious about it, I’d look at bringing in top pros who have done it before. For instance, how did Leicester climb up the table? Who was key from a management standpoint? Could we get them? How do Dortmund always seem to find gems and sell them on while maintaining their level? We got Mislintat. Why did we lose him if rebuild was the mandate?

But then you see the three amigos we have running the club and they have no credibility in this area. This is what makes my cynical. It seems Kroenke simply chose three guys who’d be easy to handle and keep in line.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby Goonerred » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:04 am

We've been short of 3-5 players for over a decade. There's something lacking in most of our players, they just don't seem to have the hunger.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:08 am

Yeah I can agree with all of that Swipe Right, although if you think about it Edu and that fat little Spanish bloke whose names escapes me were experienced football people. The Vinai appointment was strange. But we should've brought in established AND successful people at all levels, to run the club and we did it half-arsed.

The whole Mislintat situation was weird and very unprofessional in the end.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:02 pm

swipe right wrote:Let me ask you guys a simple question. If you were serious about rebuilding Arsenal and fixing its perennial problems would you hire Vinai, Edu and Arteta to do the job? No disrespect to them but they have zero experience in any kind of a rebuild.

Were I serious about it, I’d look at bringing in top pros who have done it before. For instance, how did Leicester climb up the table? Who was key from a management standpoint? Could we get them? How do Dortmund always seem to find gems and sell them on while maintaining their level? We got Mislintat. Why did we lose him if rebuild was the mandate?

But then you see the three amigos we have running the club and they have no credibility in this area. This is what makes my cynical. It seems Kroenke simply chose three guys who’d be easy to handle and keep in line.



Edu and Arteta - probably yes.
The problem with signing an experienced high profile coach/director of football is that they are not going to want to tweak or think long term. They want money , lots of it and a very good chance of winning titles and CL's now. We didn't - and don't - have the money to replace almost an entire team (which was needed) with top players NOW. That's why we went down a route of signing 6 players this summer for only 150m total. That's one and a half Jack Grealish's.
Realistically - if we want to completely rebuild - the options were a lower profile coach, an unknown gem like Wenger when he first came, or someone like Arteta that has potential and is given time to effect change.

Comes down to strategy -for 'win titles now', we don't have the right players or coach.. for a reset and rebuild, we probably do.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby swipe right » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:25 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
swipe right wrote:Let me ask you guys a simple question. If you were serious about rebuilding Arsenal and fixing its perennial problems would you hire Vinai, Edu and Arteta to do the job? No disrespect to them but they have zero experience in any kind of a rebuild.

Were I serious about it, I’d look at bringing in top pros who have done it before. For instance, how did Leicester climb up the table? Who was key from a management standpoint? Could we get them? How do Dortmund always seem to find gems and sell them on while maintaining their level? We got Mislintat. Why did we lose him if rebuild was the mandate?

But then you see the three amigos we have running the club and they have no credibility in this area. This is what makes my cynical. It seems Kroenke simply chose three guys who’d be easy to handle and keep in line.



Edu and Arteta - probably yes.
The problem with signing an experienced high profile coach/director of football is that they are not going to want to tweak or think long term. They want money , lots of it and a very good chance of winning titles and CL's now. We didn't - and don't - have the money to replace almost an entire team (which was needed) with top players NOW. That's why we went down a route of signing 6 players this summer for only 150m total. That's one and a half Jack Grealish's.
Realistically - if we want to completely rebuild - the options were a lower profile coach, an unknown gem like Wenger when he first came, or someone like Arteta that has potential and is given time to effect change.

Comes down to strategy -for 'win titles now', we don't have the right players or coach.. for a reset and rebuild, we probably do.

As we’ve discussed in other threads. You’re either competing or you’re not. Sport is fairly binary. Yes, there is a moment in time when you regroup and make some changes but if that goes more than 2-3 seasons then you’re in trouble. We’ve seen that with Wenger. He was the perfect candidate to build a new glorious post Invincibles era and up to a point it looked like it was going to happen. In February 2008 we top of the league and five points clear. We went to St Andrews and it all fell apart. In the next couple of seasons all the key players were gone and we were rebuilding all over again. There have been three or four rebuilds since then. I’ve lost count. The club can’t keep going on like this.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby theHotHead » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:18 pm

Since I have been an Arsenal fan we have not bought the most expensive players but we have been able to compete. I don't think that argument is valid, there are plenty of good players out there, there always have been - even when fans kept claiming there were not.

You just have to look at Lokonga and Tomiyasu, players like them are all over the place, we just need to find them and buy them, its not hard. We don't need to buy the most expensive players to be competitive
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby Salibatelli » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:34 pm

There’s no such thing as long term in football anymore, if you try to build for the long term you get left behind and before you know it players leave.

We needed a top manager after Emery, someone who knows how to win, we went down the untested route, it was actually beyond that and we chose someone who had actually never proved they could manage at any level, it’s no surprise it hasn’t worked.

Despite it being clear it’s not working, we continue to walk down the same path whilst watching other teams improving and signing better players than us.

The reality is 2 years down the line from a manager we should have a very clear idea of the style of player and we should be seeing tangible progress. 2 years is plenty to implement something and get players performing in the way you need them to.

People use to refer to Klopp when Arteta took over, Klopp got a definitive way of playing as soon as possible, then he gradually brought players in that kept improving the team and fitted the style, after two years you could see the progress and the style of play was unquestionable.

I’m just not seeing that with us, the same problems we had last year seem to exist and there isn’t much progress in terms of play, we should be very capable of breaking down teams now (I don’t mean teams 2 divisions below us) with that style we’ve adopted, instead every game is a struggle and players don’t really seem to be able to perform to their best within the supposed system.

If you look at the big clubs who are serious about winning they make clear efforts to do so, either by signing players that make a tangible different and-or by bringing in a top manager, we fail on both counts.

Whilst it’s nice to sign young players, it should be done alongside top players who can perform here and now and bring you closer to competing with your rivals.

Signing a load of young players isn’t going to do that.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby swipe right » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:58 pm

This is what Arteta is trying to do. He’s just not good at it.
https://youtu.be/YRk3wVJp8gI
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby ag6789 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:06 pm

Wenger rebelled against buying the league, against monopoly and wanted wholesome development from within and little bit from without. But unfortunately couldn't stop the takeover of the big money.
The Kroenkes been involved w/the club since mid 2000s (?) and obviously was bought into Wenger's vision and philosophy, because they coexisted for 10+ yrs w/o any interference from the Ks. Around '16 , it became clear the Wenger wasn't getting any younger and so after Wenger who and what? Enter Raul and Mislinstat , and things started to change.
The Ks probably had a few dilemmas at this point- first , they're not football people, so they earlier trusted Wenger and focused on the rest of their businesses. The new bunch wanted to flex their muscle and had ambitions and ideas of their own. Jettisoned Wenger's approach and made their own moves. Wenger exited the scene, Raul and Mislinstat fell out soon after , making a mess of things.
Meanwhile, the new manager Unai was unable to come to terms w/ PL and the multicultural nature of UK and Arsenal and had to go. The Ks again had to change track and put Vinai, Edu etc in charge, which brings in a whole new set of changes/complexities.
So, I guess it's growing pains once again for Arsenal fans and we have to be a bit patient.
But PL is an unforgiving place so Arteta has a finite window to show results, otherwise still more uncertainties in future. Big name managers aren't the solution, as we have seen w/Mou and Lotti.
Conclusion: either you buy the league , or hire/fire managers at will, or be lucky w/a punt on a manager or wait out the rough patch like 'Pool , finally settling in with a compatible and competent one
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby DiamondGooner » Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:33 pm

theHotHead wrote:Swipey, we are not Spurs, we are the third most successful team in English football history. We won't do a Spurs, we win stuff, always have. in the last 10 years, as shit as we have been, we have won 4 major trophies !!

We are not that far off challenging, I don't agree with the decade that was mentioned by Ang or 5 years by Jay, we could in all honesty challenge next season if we pick up 2 to 3 players we need and a decent manager.


But to be fair even with my 4 year estimate, that could take 20 years if the above highlighted doesn't occur.

Our fate is in the hands of Vinai and Edu .......... both football amatuers, Edu obviously was a player but I mean in his expertise at club football management, he was no heavy hitter in recruitment and Vinai was a business accountant.

Neither of them are right to pick our managers, look at the job they've done so far.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby Angelito » Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:35 pm

theHotHead wrote:Angelito, are you saying all 3 factors are required or any one of 3?

I agree with factor one and three, don't agree with factor 2. Every league has examples where teams won their league without being a money club. What we need is a competent manager and some shrewd purchases. I think Lokonga and Tomi are great examples, get us a good CF and DM and our starting team would be a match for any, 2 or 3 more key additions would make the squad stronger and its that we need to mount a title challenge.


One of the three.

City, for example, fulfills both criteria. Liverpool fulfils one of them. They don't have unlimited resources. Chelsea, at this stage, fulfils two.

A great manager and dedicated, visionary people leading clubs works wonders. Bayern, for example, have the financial muscle but they have a terrific set of directors. So, even if they hire decent managers, it ends up working for them.

On a different note, it is possible to win the League without the financial monopoly. However, it's difficult and rare in today's times. Dortmund, Atleti (13/14), and Leicester are the only clubs that have pulled it off. Today, you could consider Atleti a financial giant as well. They're superb in selling players and reinvesting in the squad.

Otherwise, a great manager with smart people upstairs could pull a rabbit out of the hat. But they won't dominate like United did, Chelsea did for a while, or City have been doing this past decade.

Case in point: Klopp's Liverpool. They lost the league with 97 points. That's insanity. City's galactic spending gave them that extra push. Liverpool benefited from selling Coutinho but they do not have the unlimited spending power of a City.

Ultimately, the club's hierarchy sets objectives. Arsenal don't seem to be interested in challenging for titles again. The goal is UCL football. If it happens, so much the better. But I can't see Arsenal's directors going gung-ho for the league title.

That's the reason they were eager to sign-up for the super league. The club would be earning £200m in participation fees alone.

That's also why I think the directors here are banking on UCL's new rule for qualification starting 2024. It gives them a shortcut without having to deal with ambitious managers or those driven by success.
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby starmandb » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:06 pm

theHotHead wrote:Swipey, we are not Spurs, we are the third most successful team in English football history. We won't do a Spurs, we win stuff, always have. in the last 10 years, as shit as we have been, we have won 4 major trophies !!

We are not that far off challenging, I don't agree with the decade that was mentioned by Ang or 5 years by Jay, we could in all honesty challenge next season if we pick up 2 to 3 players we need and a decent manager.

Hear hear
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby starmandb » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:08 pm

theHotHead wrote:Since I have been an Arsenal fan we have not bought the most expensive players but we have been able to compete. I don't think that argument is valid, there are plenty of good players out there, there always have been - even when fans kept claiming there were not.

You just have to look at Lokonga and Tomiyasu, players like them are all over the place, we just need to find them and buy them, its not hard. We don't need to buy the most expensive players to be competitive

Hear hear
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Re: Where are Arsenal with readiness to challenge?

Postby jayramfootball » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:42 pm

theHotHead wrote:Since I have been an Arsenal fan we have not bought the most expensive players but we have been able to compete. I don't think that argument is valid, there are plenty of good players out there, there always have been - even when fans kept claiming there were not.

You just have to look at Lokonga and Tomiyasu, players like them are all over the place, we just need to find them and buy them, its not hard. We don't need to buy the most expensive players to be competitive


Which is what we've done.
But replacing the entire team in one or even two windows is not possible.
Great start with 6 brought in, plus Gabriel and Tierney... but these players will get better over time. They will not win us the league this year.

We're embarking on the correct strategy but it will take time before we are realistic challengers for the title.
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