Creativity & Chance Conversion

Discuss anything Arsenal-related. Tune in to get the latest news, and discuss results, performances, tactics, etc.

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:58 am

theHotHead wrote:
TedLasso wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Its not the first 3 games Jay - we have scored 13 goals in 8 games, our creativity is shit, thats been the case for most of the season. Its not this picture of bliss/awesomeness you are making it out to be.


I have no interest in the argument you and jay are having but im curious about something here.

How many goals over those 8 games would Arsenal have needed for you to think our creativity is not shit? What would an adequate number be to you?

Good question, this is one of those times where stats alone don't paint the whole picture.

If we were creating lots of chances in games, good chances - and missing them, I wouldn't make a fuss about the few number of goals we have scored, it would largely be irrelevant because I know it would only be a matter of time for the goals to start being scored.

But its the stats along with our poor attacking play that is the reason for my concern, the tactic of slinging in crosses every 2 minutes to nobody or to players that have little chance in converting the crosses is the problem. Having Auba isolated is a problem, its easy for teams to defend.

So I can't answer your question with a black and white answer, it all depends on how we play as well as how many we score.

We had an argument a while back about the quality of our chances and Jay made the point that other teams are converting more of their shit chances than us, he saw that as the problem. I disagreed, I said we are not creating enough good chances in the first place, I maintain that point.


The data showed we were creating plenty of chances, but not enough higher quality chances. Our conversion rate was a real problem - probably the bigger of the two problems.
The quality of our chances created has gone up a lot - we're one of the better teams in the league over the last few games.
You didn't answer the question, though.
We've scored 13 in the last 8 games, which is the 3rd best in the league, so clearly our goal scoring has improved from a very dry start. If that is shit then what is good? Do we need to be the best in order not to be shit?
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27570
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby theHotHead » Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:59 am

I did answer Jay, based on how crap I think we have played the number of goals scored is poor and is a worry. However, had we been playing good football and scored the number of goals we have scored it would still be poor but it would be no concern.

If our creativity wasn't hit we would've scored more goals. And AGAIN, you claim we have scored the 3rd most goals in the league in the past 8 games, you picked a period that suits Arsenal. Why not compare how many goals other clubs have scored in their best 8 games as a comparison ?!

When I look at the league table thus far 9 teams have scored more goals than us, one of them is Aston Villa in 16th place !! Even Burnley (18th) and Newcastle (19th) have scored 11 and 12 goals respectively and we all know how impotent in front of goal both clubs have been this season.
User avatar
theHotHead
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 20618
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby Ach » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:09 pm

theHotHead wrote:Its not the first 3 games Jay - we have scored 13 goals in 8 games, our creativity is shit, thats been the case for most of the season. Its not this picture of bliss/awesomeness you are making it out to be.

It's actually 13 in 11 which is garbage

But if we do a jay classic and forget the 3 games then 13 in 8 is about average. In fact for an arteta side with limited creativity it's probably as good as we could do
Ach
Poster of the Month
Poster of the Month
 
Posts: 36156
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:25 pm

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby theHotHead » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:19 pm

Lets just remove the 3 worst scoring games for every team and compare to Arsenal's 13 in 8.
User avatar
theHotHead
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 20618
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:55 pm

theHotHead wrote:Lets just remove the 3 worst scoring games for every team and compare to Arsenal's 13 in 8.


Why would we do that when we were specifically talking about comparing our last 8 games where we have improved??? :dontknow:
I made a comment that our creativity has improved since the first 3 games.
It seemed to create a reaction from the same suspects desperate for there not to be any positivity.
Pipe down.
My statement is correct - our creativity has got a lot better recently and for the last couple of moths we're scoring a decent (not great) amount of goals - more than everyone else bar Chelsea and Liverpool.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27570
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby Angelito » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:37 pm

Arsenal Tone wrote:People have been defending wenger's gung-ho approach for so long they are really struggling watching us grind out results. Having one shot on target and winning 1-0 is better than having twenty and losing or drawing and that is the difference between Wenger's later years and Arteta's current season.

Arteta needed results to keep his job and wasn't getting them. He was astute enough to know that to get results you need to be solid at the back and sorted it. Results are now coming.

I want to see what he does next in terms of both tactics and transfers.


That's an oversimplification. From what I've read here, most people tend not to care about the style of play. They're result-focused. I'm an exception. I'd rather watch a thrilling 3-3 over a boring 0-0.

Without further delving into that, results is what Arteta hasn't delivered so far. If 20/21 hadn't existed, and this season was a follow-up to the FA Cup win, you'd have 99% of Arsenal fans writing folk songs in appreciation of Arteta.

If results continue to come, few fans would object to Arteta's methods or stay as an Arsenal manager. That's the truth.

Your claim about Wenger's, "gung-ho," approach didn't see us fail apart from his final two seasons. That proverbial, "gung-ho," approach yielded as the Invincibles, 2x Doubles, five more FA Cups, a UCL final, a UEFA Cup final, top-4 for two decades, and most importantly, Arsenal—a bigger and financially more stable club when Wenger left than when he joined.

Last season, for me, the objective was top-6. I remember Santi and I were in agreement of that. We hit rock-bottom in December. It was chaotic. Since then, we've improved. The EL debacle against Emery's Villarreal aside, Arteta has done enough to arrest Arsenal's downfall.

What does that mean ultimately?

Results. As you stated.

If we can get back to European football, primarily the Europa League, I'd consider this season a success despite it being a low barometer for Arsenal F.C.—the third biggest club of England.

The underlying metric doesn't paint us in glory. We have been grinding out results. That's great. But is it sustainable? Can we improve? Can we get back into the Champions League under Arteta without having to rely on UEFA's rigged game for top clubs?

Those are largely unanswered questions.

My objective for Arteta and Arsenal have been far lower than what I had of Arsenal under Wenger. I don't expect title challenges, forget about titles. I don't expect consistent success in the FA Cup. What I do expect is Arsenal returning to those top-4 years—an accolade Wenger was chastised for.

I'm not free of guilt there. I was among those stupid people who relentlessly criticized Wenger for his achievements. I was wrong. I was wrong to slam him without realizing the magnitude of his work.

What you're saying isn't invalid. But it's not valid either. It will be—if we finish in EL places this season and go back to where we were when Wenger left, a European place. For now, the Conference League isn't what I'd consider a success.

Objectivity shouldn't be lost behind the mask of displeasure or biasedness. As an Arsenal aficionado, I'm not interested in who the manager is; only, what the manager brings to the table.

With Wenger, it was different for fans. He is such a legendary figure, not just for the club but for English football as such, emotions were bound to flare up.

After him, every manager is an employee designated for a purpose. The purpose may be different. For fans, it's about performances. For the owners, it might be profitability.

Ultimately, it's the end of the season that matters. Where do we finish? What do we win? How close are we to Europe's premier competition?

This run of form since the close of the transfer window has warranted Arteta the whole season as Arsenal manager unless we capitulate like last season during Nov/Dec.

The objectives this season is clear cut: get back to EL football. The Conference League won't cut it for me. It might for some fans. If we achieve UCL football, that'd be epic. I'm not expecting it. But that's not a stick I'm willing to use to spank Arteta.

It's important to be critical and unbiased. Definitely the antonym of fandom. But if we can manage that, being a fan would be simpler. Discussions would be more logic-focused. Emotions wouldn't go wasted.
Image
User avatar
Angelito
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 30577
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Lyra

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby theHotHead » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:50 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Lets just remove the 3 worst scoring games for every team and compare to Arsenal's 13 in 8.


Why would we do that when we were specifically talking about comparing our last 8 games where we have improved??? :dontknow:
I made a comment that our creativity has improved since the first 3 games.
It seemed to create a reaction from the same suspects desperate for there not to be any positivity.
Pipe down.
My statement is correct - our creativity has got a lot better recently and for the last couple of moths we're scoring a decent (not great) amount of goals - more than everyone else bar Chelsea and Liverpool.

Sometimes Jay ... its like talking to a brick wall with you ... sometimes ....... :lol:
User avatar
theHotHead
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 20618
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby theHotHead » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:52 pm

Angelito wrote:
Without further delving into that, results is what Arteta hasn't delivered so far. If 20/21 hadn't existed, and this season was a follow-up to the FA Cup win, you'd have 99% of Arsenal fans writing folk songs in appreciation of Arteta.

If results continue to come, few fans would object to Arteta's methods or stay as an Arsenal manager. That's the truth.


:clap:
User avatar
theHotHead
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 20618
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:49 pm

theHotHead wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Lets just remove the 3 worst scoring games for every team and compare to Arsenal's 13 in 8.


Why would we do that when we were specifically talking about comparing our last 8 games where we have improved??? :dontknow:
I made a comment that our creativity has improved since the first 3 games.
It seemed to create a reaction from the same suspects desperate for there not to be any positivity.
Pipe down.
My statement is correct - our creativity has got a lot better recently and for the last couple of moths we're scoring a decent (not great) amount of goals - more than everyone else bar Chelsea and Liverpool.

Sometimes Jay ... its like talking to a brick wall with you ... sometimes ....... :lol:


Other fans rarely change my mind - but what happens on the pitch does. :biggrin:
Always been like that and unlikely to change. :sneaky:
I mentioned this before a few times, that since football became more of a business than a sport, my view of players and managers are just as commodities passing through. i.e what have you done for me lately. Beyond the club, meh.
Bottom line is for me that since Dec 2020 we're getting results and I can see improvement, so that puts Arteta in a good light until such time as he is not. Same with players - play well or f**k off.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27570
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby LMAO » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:04 am

theHotHead wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Without further delving into that, results is what Arteta hasn't delivered so far. If 20/21 hadn't existed, and this season was a follow-up to the FA Cup win, you'd have 99% of Arsenal fans writing folk songs in appreciation of Arteta.

If results continue to come, few fans would object to Arteta's methods or stay as an Arsenal manager. That's the truth.


:clap:


Yeah, that's fair.
User avatar
LMAO
Member of the Year 2019
Member of the Year 2019
 
Posts: 9978
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:53 pm

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby firfi » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:54 am

You know Arteta still has to learn how to coach attacking football. We have created like very few chances from open play per 90 min since the start of arteta's reign.We've improved this season excluding the first 3 games in terms of defending big time , but also at the same time most of our good chances have come from set pieces and corners in particular. We've also created some good chances from pressing high up the pitch when the oposition is not prepared to defend.
We do this cutoff to the middle from the wingers which is actually pretty nice to see i feel like this is the way to play in the modern football and not wide with crosses exclusively.
On the other hand we lack that key training that the coach needs to coach.When we're in the middle of the pack with slow attack our players don't move enough without the ball to open more posibilities for the players to pass the ball.We stay very passive or if we don't 2 ppl move one with the ball and one without and they just mark them with 2 each and it's over for us.
It's not even about players quality ofc if we had xavi iniesta de bruyne in the midfield even w/o a coach that wouldnt make a difference , but we have young players mostly and new players that need to be coached into a system.
We're also lucky to be in a position where nobody is looking at us yet which might change if we beat Liverpool next week and it's gonna be totally different ball game.

The biggest issue in our team right now is not that we've scored few goals over 90min ,but rather it is what happens if we concede goal or two. We can see it at Chelsea same strategy basically if they concede they can't get back into the games or if they do its really hard.
firfi
Charlie George
Charlie George
 
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:21 am

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby theHotHead » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:10 am

I cant disagree with any of that, good post!!
User avatar
theHotHead
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 20618
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:31 pm

Just an interesting fact before I update the full list of teams and their creativity after 11 games.
Since the last update - which was taken after 4 games - the number of decent chances we've created is only one less than Manchester City and only 4 less than Chelsea.
We've made a big improvement in the chances we are creating, but we're still struggling to convert the half chances. Way behind most teams in the league.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27570
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby jayramfootball » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:45 am

More... since the awful start in the first 3 games, Arsenal have officially, according to the quality of chances created, been the 4th most creative team in the league - only just behind Man City and Chelsea, with Liverpool way out on their own at the top.

Over the whole season, including those first 3 games, we are the 7th most creative team in the league.
User avatar
jayramfootball
Member of the Year 2021
Member of the Year 2021
 
Posts: 27570
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: Creativity & Chance Conversion

Postby theHotHead » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:24 pm

jayramfootball wrote:More... since the awful start in the first 3 games, Arsenal have officially, according to the quality of chances created, been the 4th most creative team in the league - only just behind Man City and Chelsea, with Liverpool way out on their own at the top.

Over the whole season, including those first 3 games, we are the 7th most creative team in the league.

Jay you know I am gonna rip this to shreds!!! 4th most creative team in the league allegedly but still have a negative goal difference
User avatar
theHotHead
SE13
SE13
 
Posts: 20618
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:44 am
Location: Norf Landon

PreviousNext

Return to Arsenal Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Goonerfromafrica, Salibatelli, swipe right, theHotHead and 76 guests