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Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:53 pm
by CaptGooner
Zenith wrote:I don't buy the corruption angle, but for years and years the media (rightly so, to an extent) pushed the narrative that Arsenal teams are 'naive' and 'soft', particularly physically. That has changed in the last year or two: Arsenal have become a taller, more combative team, and have become significantly more dominant in both ground and aerial duels.

There's also an increase in cynicism and gamesmanship to Arsenal's play. Again, no obscene amount for a Premier League team, but it's that drastic change in style that challenges perception, and it influences the outcome of the decisions that are being made.

Modern Arsenal teams aren't supposed to have 'hard' or 'cynical' traits, and so there's a tendency for 50-50 calls, or 60-40 calls, to not go Arsenal's way. It's a classic case of Semmelweis effect. It'll pass, but only if we stick to those same principles for long enough and re-establish ourselves as a top-4 side.

Spot on. When the penalty was given it brought back flashbacks to the Wenger years when it seemed every call went against us in big games. It’s definitely gotten better though the past couple years.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 8:32 am
by jayramfootball
DiamondGooner wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:11 minutes in at 0-0

Like I said , we should have been playing against 10 men with 79 minutes left at 0-0.
Ref (and VAR who was Mike Dean by the way) 100% dictated the result.



There are no rational explanations as to why Son was not sent off.
There is no way an Arsenal player would have got away with that.

As usual we have 'Arsenal; fans' here delighted that we lost and loving bias refs against us.


Not at all.

We just focus on the fact that they scored 3 and we managed none, no referee decisions are going to help us attack properly, Saka was poor and the difference in level between him and a WC player in Son was on full display, a level difference I've had to spoon feed and educate you on the difference of what a "good" player and WC looks like as you seem to not know, I hope you learned something.

In the end of the day the penalty was soft, but again, that doesn't mean it won't be given, it means its a 50/50 chance it'll be given and Son did a good job of selling it and Cedric looked cynical.

Holding however has no defence whatsoever, he lost his head trying to mark a WC player, its that simple, there was no need whatsoever for rough housing Son half way up the bloody pitch its ridiculous.

Arteta should of seen Holding was in trouble after the yellow card and hauled him off, problem solved.


Not sure why you felt the need to deflect on behalf of Son and the ref.

Before Holdings red , Son should have been sent off for an elbow.
It’s that simple.
What Holding did later was irrelevant to that decision. Son should not even have been on the field for Holding to foul later.
We should have been playing vs 10 men from 11 minutes on - at 0-0.

In other words the ref dictated the winner of the game

The fact the ref gave one of the softest penalties you will ever see as well a few minutes later was no surprise at all. Once he has cheated so blatantly to allow Son to stay in the pitch, we had no chance.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 10:43 am
by StockGooner
Problem here Jay is that you seem to be holding only the referee accountable for this loss

You've not really commented on Holding himself. You're saying Holding's behaviour is irrelevant, but Holding is responsible for his own behaviour. He can't control the referee and the actions he takes whether they are right or wrongs o he has to get on regardless. What he can do is control himself and his red card is solely on him. I disagree with others that his red is somehow Arteta's fault, he's a seasoned pro and to block a man is one thing, but the elbow was something else

I admire the positivity around the team, I really do, but here it looks like you're kind of blaming just one man, the referee.

And we can talk about softness of a penalty which it was, but at the end of the day Cedric gave the referee the opportunity to give it

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 10:48 am
by Goonerred
StockGooner wrote:Problem here Jay is that you seem to be holding only the referee accountable for this loss

You've not really commented on Holding himself. You're saying Holding's behaviour is irrelevant, but Holding is responsible for his own behaviour. He can't control the referee and the actions he takes whether they are right or wrongs o he has to get on regardless. What he can do is control himself and his red card is solely on him. I disagree with others that his red is somehow Arteta's fault, he's a seasoned pro and to block a man is one thing, but the elbow was something else

I admire the positivity around the team, I really do, but here it looks like you're kind of blaming just one man, the referee.

And we can talk about softness of a penalty which it was, but at the end of the day Cedric gave the referee the opportunity to give it

People are holding Arteta partly responsible because Holding was outrageous and he should have been replaced after his yellow. He was lucky not to be on three or four yellows by the time he got his first. Early on he booted Son in the ribs after he tackled him and Son had gone to ground, no yellow for that, I thought the ref was quite lenient with him early on.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 10:59 am
by alexafc12
I've said for a while we need to be smarter.

We're very naive in big games. Holding has to roll around and hold his face after the Son incident.

Arteta had to recognise Holding was a risk and as soon as he got the first yellow make the change. He was walking on thin ice and the referee was always looking for a reason to send him off.

The penalty decision ... Well what can you say.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 11:01 am
by alexafc12
I remember during the Jose era, him telling the Spurs lads ... We have to be c***s.

Arteta needs to deliver the same message. Rather than winging about it after games we need to start playing the game.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 11:17 am
by jayramfootball
StockGooner wrote:Problem here Jay is that you seem to be holding only the referee accountable for this loss

You've not really commented on Holding himself. You're saying Holding's behaviour is irrelevant, but Holding is responsible for his own behaviour. He can't control the referee and the actions he takes whether they are right or wrongs o he has to get on regardless. What he can do is control himself and his red card is solely on him. I disagree with others that his red is somehow Arteta's fault, he's a seasoned pro and to block a man is one thing, but the elbow was something else

I admire the positivity around the team, I really do, but here it looks like you're kind of blaming just one man, the referee.

And we can talk about softness of a penalty which it was, but at the end of the day Cedric gave the referee the opportunity to give it


Sure but then if we want to go through all the reasons why we lost we could talk for days.

Ultimately though what I am saying is correct.
We should have been against 10 men with 79 minutes to go at 0-0.
It would have been a totally different game but for the ref. There is no explanation as to why Son stayed on the pitch. He didn’t even get a yellow for a far worse elbow than Holding gave him. We have VAR now too so that incident could not possibly have been missed.

Holding WON the battle with Son - he wound him up and got him to elbow him in the face - at that point the ref has to send Son off and Holding has done exactly what he looked like he set out to do. However, the ref decided not to apply the laws of the game in order to favour Spurs.

Sure Holding should have been smart enough then to know the ref was cheating and allowed Son to have the ball with no pressure - i.e. put our defending at risk due to a bias ref in order not to get sent off.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 11:37 am
by jayramfootball
alexafc12 wrote:I remember during the Jose era, him telling the Spurs lads ... We have to be c***s.

Arteta needs to deliver the same message. Rather than winging about it after games we need to start playing the game.


We did play the game - Holding got under Son's skin and provoked him to react with a red card offence.
The ref decided on the day that only Arsenal would be punished for such infractions.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:22 pm
by StockGooner
Goonerred wrote:
StockGooner wrote:Problem here Jay is that you seem to be holding only the referee accountable for this loss

You've not really commented on Holding himself. You're saying Holding's behaviour is irrelevant, but Holding is responsible for his own behaviour. He can't control the referee and the actions he takes whether they are right or wrongs o he has to get on regardless. What he can do is control himself and his red card is solely on him. I disagree with others that his red is somehow Arteta's fault, he's a seasoned pro and to block a man is one thing, but the elbow was something else

I admire the positivity around the team, I really do, but here it looks like you're kind of blaming just one man, the referee.

And we can talk about softness of a penalty which it was, but at the end of the day Cedric gave the referee the opportunity to give it

People are holding Arteta partly responsible because Holding was outrageous and he should have been replaced after his yellow. He was lucky not to be on three or four yellows by the time he got his first. Early on he booted Son in the ribs after he tackled him and Son had gone to ground, no yellow for that, I thought the ref was quite lenient with him early on.


Of course he's partly responsible. I'd say for most losses he is, as are the players.

But I don't blame him for how Holding was during the game. If he had replaced him, it would have been for Tavares who has been called into question more than once, or a part fit White, who I wouldn't fancy against Son.

In fairness, when Jay says he Son shouldn't have been on the field, he is correct BUT that doesn't excuse Holding for his actions at all, and I lay a lot of blame for Thursday on him, more than on Arteta and more than the ref.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:34 pm
by Goonerred
StockGooner wrote:
Goonerred wrote:
StockGooner wrote:Problem here Jay is that you seem to be holding only the referee accountable for this loss

You've not really commented on Holding himself. You're saying Holding's behaviour is irrelevant, but Holding is responsible for his own behaviour. He can't control the referee and the actions he takes whether they are right or wrongs o he has to get on regardless. What he can do is control himself and his red card is solely on him. I disagree with others that his red is somehow Arteta's fault, he's a seasoned pro and to block a man is one thing, but the elbow was something else

I admire the positivity around the team, I really do, but here it looks like you're kind of blaming just one man, the referee.

And we can talk about softness of a penalty which it was, but at the end of the day Cedric gave the referee the opportunity to give it

People are holding Arteta partly responsible because Holding was outrageous and he should have been replaced after his yellow. He was lucky not to be on three or four yellows by the time he got his first. Early on he booted Son in the ribs after he tackled him and Son had gone to ground, no yellow for that, I thought the ref was quite lenient with him early on.


Of course he's partly responsible. I'd say for most losses he is, as are the players.

But I don't blame him for how Holding was during the game. If he had replaced him, it would have been for Tavares who has been called into question more than once, or a part fit White, who I wouldn't fancy against Son.

In fairness, when Jay says he Son shouldn't have been on the field, he is correct BUT that doesn't excuse Holding for his actions at all, and I lay a lot of blame for Thursday on him, more than on Arteta and more than the ref.

Arteta should have pulled him though, he was like a demented flea.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:37 pm
by Nuggets
Goonerred wrote:
StockGooner wrote:
Goonerred wrote:
StockGooner wrote:Problem here Jay is that you seem to be holding only the referee accountable for this loss

You've not really commented on Holding himself. You're saying Holding's behaviour is irrelevant, but Holding is responsible for his own behaviour. He can't control the referee and the actions he takes whether they are right or wrongs o he has to get on regardless. What he can do is control himself and his red card is solely on him. I disagree with others that his red is somehow Arteta's fault, he's a seasoned pro and to block a man is one thing, but the elbow was something else

I admire the positivity around the team, I really do, but here it looks like you're kind of blaming just one man, the referee.

And we can talk about softness of a penalty which it was, but at the end of the day Cedric gave the referee the opportunity to give it

People are holding Arteta partly responsible because Holding was outrageous and he should have been replaced after his yellow. He was lucky not to be on three or four yellows by the time he got his first. Early on he booted Son in the ribs after he tackled him and Son had gone to ground, no yellow for that, I thought the ref was quite lenient with him early on.


Of course he's partly responsible. I'd say for most losses he is, as are the players.

But I don't blame him for how Holding was during the game. If he had replaced him, it would have been for Tavares who has been called into question more than once, or a part fit White, who I wouldn't fancy against Son.

In fairness, when Jay says he Son shouldn't have been on the field, he is correct BUT that doesn't excuse Holding for his actions at all, and I lay a lot of blame for Thursday on him, more than on Arteta and more than the ref.

Arteta should have pulled him though, he was like a demented flea.

A decent manager who have seen the dangers and pulled him off. But we ain't got a decent manager.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 2:08 pm
by alexafc12
jayramfootball wrote:
alexafc12 wrote:I remember during the Jose era, him telling the Spurs lads ... We have to be c***s.

Arteta needs to deliver the same message. Rather than winging about it after games we need to start playing the game.


We did play the game - Holding got under Son's skin and provoked him to react with a red card offence.
The ref decided on the day that only Arsenal would be punished for such infractions.


He has to make a meal of it. Roll around holding his face so the ref has to stop play. Manager needs to be arms in the air yelling at the ref. Players need to be screaming elbow elbow. They have no choice but to call for VAR in that instance.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 3:11 pm
by swipe right
jayramfootball wrote:
alexafc12 wrote:I remember during the Jose era, him telling the Spurs lads ... We have to be c***s.

Arteta needs to deliver the same message. Rather than winging about it after games we need to start playing the game.


We did play the game - Holding got under Son's skin and provoked him to react with a red card offence.
The ref decided on the day that only Arsenal would be punished for such infractions.

Yet you call the PL the best league in the world? Sounds like it’s a pretty shit league with refs openly bias against certain teams.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 3:28 pm
by jayramfootball
swipe right wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
alexafc12 wrote:I remember during the Jose era, him telling the Spurs lads ... We have to be c***s.

Arteta needs to deliver the same message. Rather than winging about it after games we need to start playing the game.


We did play the game - Holding got under Son's skin and provoked him to react with a red card offence.
The ref decided on the day that only Arsenal would be punished for such infractions.

Yet you call the PL the best league in the world? Sounds like it’s a pretty shit league with refs openly bias against certain teams.


Weird comment. Totally unrelated
Assume you are just trying to troll.

Re: Major Refereeing Decisions

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 11:25 pm
by jayramfootball
Paul Tierney was on VAR duties today for the FA Cup final.
Nudge in the back of a Chelsea player - worse than the penalty he gave against us because the attacker was through on goal. No penalty or even a foul. Tells you all you need to know.