Bukayo Saka (7)

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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby swipe right » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:24 pm

At least Jack the lad is coming home. He can play left wing forward if Saka leaves.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Özim » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:29 pm

swipe right wrote:At least Jack the lad is coming home. He can play left wing forward if Saka leaves.


Do we have crutches or a hot tub for him?
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Highbury Hillbilly » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:38 pm

Özim wrote:We’ve reached the stage now we should be selling anyone that doesn’t commit to a new contract with 2 years left now anyway, if they won’t commit it’s because they’re not convinced it’s the right place for them so better to sell with 2 years left and make a decent amount then allow them to run it down to 1 year and take a cut price fee or even worse nothing the following year.


That was supposed to be the policy after the Ramsey renewal debacle. Anybody not re-upping in the final 2 years would be shipped out.

It never happened. Instead of selling, we mostly paid players to leave, or loaned them out till their contracts expired.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby theHotHead » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:32 pm

We have to remember, its all well and good saying we will sell players that don't sign a contract extension with 2 years to go on their existing contracts, but if that player doesn't agree to be sold there is nothing the club can do about it. So its just big talk, the player must agree to be sold.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Angelito » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:32 pm

While I do believe he will stay at Arsenal for 2-3 years even if things remain as bad as they are, some people need to understand that hurling dreams to the future rarely works in football. There has to be something that grounds players to the present and that only comes through success in the present.

Watching Edu's interview, it gave a sense that the folks expect Arsenal to be relatively successful in the future based on the recruitments this summer. I wish it worked that way.

A youth-oriented project doesn't always yield success in the future. There will be injuries, unhappy players; there will be players who don't turn out great, or players who'd want to leave for success elsewhere.

I don't even want to talk about how this management team subtly turned from needing experience and physicality (last season's spiritual wisdom offered by the manager) to opting for younger players this summer. Smart people will understand how this management team is making things up as they go.

If I'm Saka's agent, I'm simply asking myself and my client, do we see Arsenal challenging for top honors any time soon? That's a negative. Can Arsenal get back in the UCL and provide us that exposure and experience? Uncertain. Are Arsenal willing to pay top wages to keep us at the club? Likely.

So, money, now becomes the prerogative. However, if some other, more ambitious, more efficient club does offer Saka a role in the team, is it worth it to persist with Arsenal's project? No, it's not.

It's understandable that some Arsenal fans would accept a top-8 berth. That's admirable.

Nonetheless, players don't exactly think this way, especially hyped up prodigies like Saka. He'll go on international duty, see his mates play in the UCL, challenge for top honors, and he'd want that too.

That's the misfortune pseudo-smart individuals bring along with them. Not only is the manager in his first job, the TD/DoF is on his first major job as well. So, in essence, this club is enabling the two inexperienced pros to use Arsenal as a collateral in their journey of education and experience. It's bliss for them. Ill-fortune for the fans.

But I don't blame the two honchos entrusted with the fortunes of Arsenal. They can use this period to build up their experience, boost their confidence, and treat it as a university—so that it helps them in the future when they work for other clubs. It's a great internship opportunity for the duo and they're getting paid a bomb! All the while there's a segment that trusts the process and is willing to back them. What more could they ask for?

Those things aside, I do think Saka should use Arsenal as a vehicle for at least two years. He'd develop well here as he's an undisputed starter and would have the experience in playing for a struggling team. That would aid in his growth.

When he eventually joins a top team, this experience would prove invaluable.

Personally, I do think he'd sign another contract if we offered him big money. He has the upper hand in this discussion.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby ag6789 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:56 pm

For a professional, money is the major motivator, and Arsenal is a very good employer. If you're an ambitious capable player, then there's no reason why you wouldn't want to stick around, Arteta or no Arteta. Yes managers matter and so does work environment, so even if the manager might not be the smartest there shouldn't be much grumbling about the environment at Arsenal. All state of the art. It is really like a major corporation like IBM or Phillips. If you wish you can reach the stars or you can just piggy back someone and be satisfied w/an average career.
After all the game is played on the pitch and if you are willing to express yourself and do the extra bit to pull the team out of the rut, nobody should complain, least of all the manager.
All this hoopla about things are better in Chelski or ManCity are pure media hype and malicious player agent games to destabilize the players
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Highbury Hillbilly » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:53 pm

theHotHead wrote:We have to remember, its all well and good saying we will sell players that don't sign a contract extension with 2 years to go on their existing contracts, but if that player doesn't agree to be sold there is nothing the club can do about it. So its just big talk, the player must agree to be sold.


Giroud was on good wages at Chelsea, yet they managed to move him on at age 34, with a year left on his deal, for a £1m fee. Same for Utd with Daniel James, who's now at Leeds.

We simply aren't ruthless enough, or worse, we're giving players false hopes. Eddie Nketiah is a case in point. He has effectively given up a starting role at Palace, to rot on our bench.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby swipe right » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:24 am

ag6789 wrote:For a professional, money is the major motivator, and Arsenal is a very good employer. If you're an ambitious capable player, then there's no reason why you wouldn't want to stick around, Arteta or no Arteta. Yes managers matter and so does work environment, so even if the manager might not be the smartest there shouldn't be much grumbling about the environment at Arsenal. All state of the art. It is really like a major corporation like IBM or Phillips. If you wish you can reach the stars or you can just piggy back someone and be satisfied w/an average career.
After all the game is played on the pitch and if you are willing to express yourself and do the extra bit to pull the team out of the rut, nobody should complain, least of all the manager.
All this hoopla about things are better in Chelski or ManCity are pure media hype and malicious player agent games to destabilize the players

History has not shown that.
Cole
Vieira
Henry
Cesc
Hleb
RVP
Nasri
Ade
Nasri
Sanchez

Our best players reject contract extensions and leave for greener pastures.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby Goonerred » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:35 am

ag6789 wrote:For a professional, money is the major motivator, and Arsenal is a very good employer. If you're an ambitious capable player, then there's no reason why you wouldn't want to stick around, Arteta or no Arteta. Yes managers matter and so does work environment, so even if the manager might not be the smartest there shouldn't be much grumbling about the environment at Arsenal. All state of the art. It is really like a major corporation like IBM or Phillips. If you wish you can reach the stars or you can just piggy back someone and be satisfied w/an average career.
After all the game is played on the pitch and if you are willing to express yourself and do the extra bit to pull the team out of the rut, nobody should complain, least of all the manager.
All this hoopla about things are better in Chelski or ManCity are pure media hype and malicious player agent games to destabilize the players

Not sure I agree with that. I agree with the bit about the money, but if a player is good enough, they can get the money and win trophies. We've been left with overpapid medriocity for the most part because they didn't want to give up their overblown salaries, knowing full well that a United, Chelsea or City would not come in for them. Saka is in a different league, if he continues with his progress, big clubs will want him and will pay him big bucks and he will win trophies.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:02 am

Highbury Hillbilly wrote:
theHotHead wrote:We have to remember, its all well and good saying we will sell players that don't sign a contract extension with 2 years to go on their existing contracts, but if that player doesn't agree to be sold there is nothing the club can do about it. So its just big talk, the player must agree to be sold.


Giroud was on good wages at Chelsea, yet they managed to move him on at age 34, with a year left on his deal, for a £1m fee. Same for Utd with Daniel James, who's now at Leeds.

We simply aren't ruthless enough, or worse, we're giving players false hopes. Eddie Nketiah is a case in point. He has effectively given up a starting role at Palace, to rot on our bench.

Dude, Giroud only got moved on because Giroud wanted to move on. Do you think Chelsea would have a hope in hell of getting rid of him if he didn't want to leave ?!! Same for Daniel James.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:58 pm

Angelito wrote:While I do believe he will stay at Arsenal for 2-3 years even if things remain as bad as they are, some people need to understand that hurling dreams to the future rarely works in football. There has to be something that grounds players to the present and that only comes through success in the present.

Watching Edu's interview, it gave a sense that the folks expect Arsenal to be relatively successful in the future based on the recruitments this summer. I wish it worked that way.

A youth-oriented project doesn't always yield success in the future. There will be injuries, unhappy players; there will be players who don't turn out great, or players who'd want to leave for success elsewhere.

I don't even want to talk about how this management team subtly turned from needing experience and physicality (last season's spiritual wisdom offered by the manager) to opting for younger players this summer. Smart people will understand how this management team is making things up as they go.

If I'm Saka's agent, I'm simply asking myself and my client, do we see Arsenal challenging for top honors any time soon? That's a negative. Can Arsenal get back in the UCL and provide us that exposure and experience? Uncertain. Are Arsenal willing to pay top wages to keep us at the club? Likely.

So, money, now becomes the prerogative. However, if some other, more ambitious, more efficient club does offer Saka a role in the team, is it worth it to persist with Arsenal's project? No, it's not.

It's understandable that some Arsenal fans would accept a top-8 berth. That's admirable.

Nonetheless, players don't exactly think this way, especially hyped up prodigies like Saka. He'll go on international duty, see his mates play in the UCL, challenge for top honors, and he'd want that too.

That's the misfortune pseudo-smart individuals bring along with them. Not only is the manager in his first job, the TD/DoF is on his first major job as well. So, in essence, this club is enabling the two inexperienced pros to use Arsenal as a collateral in their journey of education and experience. It's bliss for them. Ill-fortune for the fans.

But I don't blame the two honchos entrusted with the fortunes of Arsenal. They can use this period to build up their experience, boost their confidence, and treat it as a university—so that it helps them in the future when they work for other clubs. It's a great internship opportunity for the duo and they're getting paid a bomb! All the while there's a segment that trusts the process and is willing to back them. What more could they ask for?

Those things aside, I do think Saka should use Arsenal as a vehicle for at least two years. He'd develop well here as he's an undisputed starter and would have the experience in playing for a struggling team. That would aid in his growth.

When he eventually joins a top team, this experience would prove invaluable.

Personally, I do think he'd sign another contract if we offered him big money. He has the upper hand in this discussion.


The strategy the club has adopted may not work, the youth project as it is being referred to. I don't see why that is an issue. Nothing is guaranteed to work. We have splashed a fortune on 'big signings' in the past and that has not worked either.

Ozil
Auba
Lacazette
Xhaka
Mustafi

That's close to 250 million on 5 players plus 10's of millions more in wages.
It didn't stop the rot.
That is not the fault of the players individually, rather they had no chance of making a difference in a club that was rotting - and had been for some time - when those players joined.

The strategy the club has adopted is really the only one that could work, save for spending a billion in one season and completely changing the squad with ready-made stars that could deliver in the PL. Even if we had the money, the chances of being able to assemble such a cast list was and is impossible.

Saka is an integral part of the bet the club has made - and it is a bet.
If we fail then it is likely Saka and others will be snapped up by other clubs.
That's just the way it is.

What the club are doing now is a decade too late, unfortunately, but it is what it is. A last throw of the dice. If this doesn't work, save for a financial meltdown in the PL, our title-challenging (and probably top 4 days) are over for a very long time, probably permanently.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby theHotHead » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:12 pm

jayramfootball wrote:
The strategy the club has adopted may not work, the youth project as it is being referred to. I don't see why that is an issue. Nothing is guaranteed to work. We have splashed a fortune on 'big signings' in the past and that has not worked either.

Ozil
Auba
Lacazette
Xhaka
Mustafi

That's close to 250 million on 5 players plus 10's of millions more in wages.
It didn't stop the rot.
That is not the fault of the players individually, rather they had no chance of making a difference in a club that was rotting - and had been for some time - when those players joined.

The strategy the club has adopted is really the only one that could work, save for spending a billion in one season and completely changing the squad with ready-made stars that could deliver in the PL. Even if we had the money, the chances of being able to assemble such a cast list was and is impossible.

Saka is an integral part of the bet the club has made - and it is a bet.
If we fail then it is likely Saka and others will be snapped up by other clubs.
That's just the way it is.

What the club are doing now is a decade too late, unfortunately, but it is what it is. A last throw of the dice. If this doesn't work, save for a financial meltdown in the PL, our title-challenging (and probably top 4 days) are over for a very long time, probably permanently.

Jay, spending on big players wasnt the problem, identifying the problem was straight forward.

Wenger didn't commit. Its that simple. He bought Ozil, that was a massive lift to the club, the next season we bought Sanchez, another huge lift to the club. Now we are buying the best players, now we are moving in the right direction. But Wenger didn't commit. Look at the squad players that got enough game time to affect performances: Shezza, Debuchy, Gibbs, Merts, Kos, Arteta, Wilshere, Ozil, Giroud, Ospina, Oxo, Ramsey, Sanchez, Monreal, Cazorla, Flamini, Chambers, Welbeck, Coquelin, Bellerin.

Does that squad strike you as a squad that will challenge for top the title ?? It doesn't to me, not even close. Lets look at the 2015-16 squad: Merts, Gab Paulista, Kos, Ozil, Giroud, Walcott, Oxo, Ramsey, Sanchez, Monreal, Cazorla, Flamini, Bellerin, Joel Campbell, Chech, Coquelin, Elneny, Iwobi.

I mean, comne on, that squad is worse ! Lets look at the next squad: Gibbs, Gab Paulista, Kos, Sanchez, Ramsey, Ozil, Giroud, Walcott, Oxo, Holding, Iwobi, Monreal, Mustafi, Welbeck, Bellerin, Xhaka, Coquelin, Elneny. Jeepers freekin creepers man, each year the squad was worse than the previous squad ! I'm not even going to bother do Wenger's final season.

There is no way you can call adding 2 marquee signings to a squad that was bereft of quality in the first place - and then what little quality it had being reduced further still - proof that big signings don't work !!!
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby jayramfootball » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:35 pm

theHotHead wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:
The strategy the club has adopted may not work, the youth project as it is being referred to. I don't see why that is an issue. Nothing is guaranteed to work. We have splashed a fortune on 'big signings' in the past and that has not worked either.

Ozil
Auba
Lacazette
Xhaka
Mustafi

That's close to 250 million on 5 players plus 10's of millions more in wages.
It didn't stop the rot.
That is not the fault of the players individually, rather they had no chance of making a difference in a club that was rotting - and had been for some time - when those players joined.

The strategy the club has adopted is really the only one that could work, save for spending a billion in one season and completely changing the squad with ready-made stars that could deliver in the PL. Even if we had the money, the chances of being able to assemble such a cast list was and is impossible.

Saka is an integral part of the bet the club has made - and it is a bet.
If we fail then it is likely Saka and others will be snapped up by other clubs.
That's just the way it is.

What the club are doing now is a decade too late, unfortunately, but it is what it is. A last throw of the dice. If this doesn't work, save for a financial meltdown in the PL, our title-challenging (and probably top 4 days) are over for a very long time, probably permanently.

Jay, spending on big players wasnt the problem, identifying the problem was straight forward.

Wenger didn't commit. Its that simple. He bought Ozil, that was a massive lift to the club, the next season we bought Sanchez, another huge lift to the club. Now we are buying the best players, now we are moving in the right direction. But Wenger didn't commit. Look at the squad players that got enough game time to affect performances: Shezza, Debuchy, Gibbs, Merts, Kos, Arteta, Wilshere, Ozil, Giroud, Ospina, Oxo, Ramsey, Sanchez, Monreal, Cazorla, Flamini, Chambers, Welbeck, Coquelin, Bellerin.

Does that squad strike you as a squad that will challenge for top the title ?? It doesn't to me, not even close. Lets look at the 2015-16 squad: Merts, Gab Paulista, Kos, Ozil, Giroud, Walcott, Oxo, Ramsey, Sanchez, Monreal, Cazorla, Flamini, Bellerin, Joel Campbell, Chech, Coquelin, Elneny, Iwobi.

I mean, comne on, that squad is worse ! Lets look at the next squad: Gibbs, Gab Paulista, Kos, Sanchez, Ramsey, Ozil, Giroud, Walcott, Oxo, Holding, Iwobi, Monreal, Mustafi, Welbeck, Bellerin, Xhaka, Coquelin, Elneny. Jeepers freekin creepers man, each year the squad was worse than the previous squad ! I'm not even going to bother do Wenger's final season.

There is no way you can call adding 2 marquee signings to a squad that was bereft of quality in the first place - and then what little quality it had being reduced further still - proof that big signings don't work !!!


What I am saying is exactly that making a couple of marquee signings was in fact just polishing a turd.
It didn't work, hasn't worked and won't work.
Adding one or two big ready-made stars is for teams that are already strong and want to keep getting better. We were headed in the opposite direction and have for some time needed a more fundamental change.
Unfortunately, the state of the club got to point where 1 or 2 ready stars was not going to make a difference - in fact, it didn't work when we tried it.
That is why I am 100% in on a rebuild long term.

That is what we are trying to do now and we better hope it works because if it doesn't we will be a long long time in the wilderness.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby theHotHead » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:17 am

Long term won't work for the various reasons others have stated. It needs to be a combo of shrewd purchases, big name purchases and investment in youth.

Everyone needs to see progress otherwise its a waste of time and money. Wenger bought a few big names but then made the squad around them worse. Arteta is spending big name money on mediocre players, i think Lokonga is an example of a good young purchase I think Tomiyasu is an example of a clever/shrewd purchase. But the fuckwit kept Xhaka and others!! No good can come from that.
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Re: Bukayo Saka (7)

Postby swipe right » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:34 am

If you look at the most successful teams of the 21st century, Chelsea and City, you will see they are rarely able to integrate youth despite having good academies and scouting networks.

Let’s start with Chelsea. Their academy has been outstanding over the past decade regularly winning youth tournaments and churning out fine players but they hardly graduate them into the first team. Latest installment is Tammy Abraham. Had he been at Arsenal we would have spent 5-6 seasons trying to turn him into a top pro, surrendering the chance to win anything in the bargain. And had we succeeded he’d have left for a bigger opportunity elsewhere. Chelsea are not having that. They sold him despite him being a fine player. They are committed to Mount but that hasn’t stopped them brining in other central midfielders like Niguez.

They also did very well scouting young players like KdB, Salah, Lukaku but didn’t have the patience to develop them. Instead sold them knowing full well they’d develop into world class players a few seasons later.

The same is true with City. They did not assure Sancho a starting spot leading to his exist to Dortmund. They’ve only managed to get Foden through at last count.

So the lesson to learn is the clubs that win things are single minded about winning. Wenger accepted that we would not win no matter what so indulged himself in the youth project while managing to keep us in the top four. It’s only when he abandoned that to get behind the likes of Xhaka and Welbeck, mediocre players with some experience, that we fell out of the top four. Had he stayed the course developing the likes of Gnabry, Malen, Adelaide, we may still be a top four club. But win the league or the champions league? No chance.
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