WENGER OUT

[Arsene Nose]

Adams is trying to sell a book. Reality he's done nothing of note in the 15 years since retirement so I don't consider him relevant.

[Cripps]

Adams is trying to sell a book. Reality he's done nothing of note in the 15 years since retirement so I don't consider him relevant.

Always be relevant to Arsenal fans tbh

To Wenger fans, not so much

[Salibatelli]

What about the invincibles season where there were 0 old guard defenders or in the run to the CL final which had a record breaking defence which contained Flamini at LB, Senderos & Kolo toure?

That team learnt form Adams and co and it was a transition period, the new bunch never got that as Wenger got rid of them before they could really pass on their knowledge. Henry, Vieira and co all sold of in their late 20s rather than being kept into their 30s for the young players to learn from. Awful decision by him for peanuts as well as we got very little for those players.

[coach8smallball]

Wenger's biggest flaws, He can't coach how to defend and he doesn't have a grasp of tactics and how to setup Arsenal to effectively counter the opposition. Great football managers and coaches will exploit weaknesses and attempt to turn the opponents strengths into a weakness. Wenger doesn't/can't do this. He is 1 dimensional.

Ex-players always talk more about him being a father figure who understands players, proper nutrition and a man who is great at creating a nice environment for players etc. Never once heard anybody say Wenger was a tactical genius, or that he was very good at coaching players on the training pitch. Perhaps he can coach attacking players but certainly not defenders.

But by far, his biggest downfall and flaw is he's totally unaware of the tactical side of the game.

In Amy Lawrence's Invincible book [Invincible: Inside Arsenal's Unbeaten 2003-2004 Season] we read from Lee Dixon:

He [Arsene] doesn’t push people around on the training pitch; he creates environments. A perfect example of that is Ashley Cole. Ash couldn’t defend to save his life when he got into the Arsenal team – and he’d agree with me. But he had arguably one of the best coaches around for him in Tony Adams standing next to him. Tony had him on a piece of string. Arsène didn’t coach him once. Arsène doesn’t particularly know whether the left back is in the right position or not! But he knows that Tony knows. So he put Ash next to Tony and said, have a look at him

Now Tony Adams says Wenger couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag. Sounds harsh but there is a pattern developing here.
Paul Merson (I know) said Harry Redknapp was a much better tactician than Wenger. That shouldn't be the case for an Arsenal manager.

We've seen first-hand how tactically naive Wenger has been over the last 13 years at Arsenal, especially in Europe, hence why he has such a shocking resume in Europe for someone managing as long as he has at top level. Diabolical

I'm talking about working on specifics on the training ground. Transitions, creating overloads, play-rounds, setting up forward platforms, attacking patterns, defensive shape, pressure cover balance etc.

That's why Arsenal is crying out for a Max Allegri type manager/head coach similar to what Chelsea have with Conte

great post and very well articulated.
you've impressed this old coach.

[coach8smallball]

Now Tony Adams says Wenger couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag. Sounds harsh but there is a pattern developing here.
Paul Merson (I know) said Harry Redknapp was a much better tactician than Wenger. That shouldn't be the case for an Arsenal manager.

We've seen first-hand how tactically naive Wenger has been over the last 13 years at Arsenal, especially in Europe, hence why he has such a shocking resume in Europe for someone managing as long as he has at top level. Diabolical

I'm talking about working on specifics on the training ground. Transitions, creating overloads, play-rounds, setting up forward platforms, attacking patterns, defensive shape, pressure cover balance etc.

That's why Arsenal is crying out for a Max Allegri type manager/head coach similar to what Chelsea have with Conte

Couple of things here.

The first example is excellent delegation, something Arsene is no longer good at. Having Adams do the work of coach, as a player, is both brilliant man-management and also great delegation. Sadly, we no longer buy such players, or foster such environments

Re- The bolded, I agree. Here's Henry explaining it:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football ... in-plan-a/

That said, it's obvious that even Wenger does some coaching and tactics
"But Arsene is a big believer in his pre-game plan. He gave us our instructions before kick-off — “watch out for him, track his runs” — and trusted that was the answer."- Henry

However, specific tactics? Not at all, as that link shows, Wenger gave them full creative freedom, with some restrictions.

Contrast with Pep:


Though even with all this, we can see that "can't coach his way out of a paper bag" is quite a huge exaggeration. It's obvious he's a good coach, but not a great one

I'd be okay with that if, and this lends to MG's post, Wenger had done more on the training ground to backup that game plan. telling players to do something isn't as effective as having them practice it, then backing it up with words.....if that makes sense.

the devil's in the details and relying strictly on players to figure that out on their own is a big risk. but there's also the other end of the spectrum where you can't overanalyze and constrict the players thinking.....paralyzation by analyzation (so to speak).

[theHotHead]

You don't need to be a successful manager to be able to have a valid opinion, you don't need to be a successful coach. The fact that Tony Adams was an elite level player and has managed puts him in a very strong position to say who he thinks is a good coach.

He has a grudge against Wenger. This is not an objective opinion
Countless others who have worked under Wenger say otherwise.

Others have said that Wenger does not spend any time on defensive coaching
https://www.arsenalreport.com/posts/lee-dixon-talks-about-wenger-s-lack-of-defensive-coaching-abilities

You have Paul Merson, Tony Adams, Ian Wright commenting on Wenger's lack of coaching ability and the fact he does not spend any time on defensive drills and apparently George Graham spent hardly any time on attack, mostly defence - I can't find the link, I will keep searching.

Notice all the players that criticise wenger are outspoken mavericks.

[GoonerAlexandre]

Now Tony Adams says Wenger couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag. Sounds harsh but there is a pattern developing here.
Paul Merson (I know) said Harry Redknapp was a much better tactician than Wenger. That shouldn't be the case for an Arsenal manager.

We've seen first-hand how tactically naive Wenger has been over the last 13 years at Arsenal, especially in Europe, hence why he has such a shocking resume in Europe for someone managing as long as he has at top level. Diabolical

I'm talking about working on specifics on the training ground. Transitions, creating overloads, play-rounds, setting up forward platforms, attacking patterns, defensive shape, pressure cover balance etc.

That's why Arsenal is crying out for a Max Allegri type manager/head coach similar to what Chelsea have with Conte

Couple of things here.

The first example is excellent delegation, something Arsene is no longer good at. Having Adams do the work of coach, as a player, is both brilliant man-management and also great delegation. Sadly, we no longer buy such players, or foster such environments

Re- The bolded, I agree. Here's Henry explaining it:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football ... in-plan-a/

That said, it's obvious that even Wenger does some coaching and tactics
"But Arsene is a big believer in his pre-game plan. He gave us our instructions before kick-off — “watch out for him, track his runs” — and trusted that was the answer."- Henry

However, specific tactics? Not at all, as that link shows, Wenger gave them full creative freedom, with some restrictions.

Contrast with Pep:


Though even with all this, we can see that "can't coach his way out of a paper bag" is quite a huge exaggeration. It's obvious he's a good coach, but not a great one

I'd be okay with that if, and this lends to MG's post, Wenger had done more on the training ground to backup that game plan. telling players to do something isn't as effective as having them practice it, then backing it up with words.....if that makes sense.

the devil's in the details and relying strictly on players to figure that out on their own is a big risk. but there's also the other end of the spectrum where you can't overanalyze and constrict the players thinking.....paralyzation by analyzation (so to speak).

Absolutely, and it's why Wenger's not one of the great coaches. Pep is a similar minded person, but his coaching methods show the vast difference between Wenger and him. For Pep, position is important. For Wenger, he has no idea where the left back should be positioned. It's obvious he does coach, and does it well, but not well enough.

It's the difference between him being a good coach and Pep being a great one.

[theHotHead]

Coach8 - over analysation is the reason Guardiola and Mourinho were so successful, players and staff commented on the thoroughness of preparation both managers have for games, analysing individual opposing players.

Wenger is a shit defensive coach, much better offensive. But we all know to win leagues you need a great defence more than you need a great attack. Wenger's biggest problem is being a tactical dufus, this above all else is the reason we are suffering from groundhog day.

[Gooner_ESR10]

The decision will be made after the FA cup final, I guess he is hoping he wins to justify a new deal. I did say he would make the decision after everything is done and dusted. There wont be a chance for people to protest at games for months.

[GoonerAlexandre]

Coach8 - over analysation is the reason Guardiola and Mourinho were so successful, players and staff commented on the thoroughness of preparation both managers have for games, analysing individual opposing players.

Wenger is a shit defensive coach, much better offensive. But we all know to win leagues you need a great defence more than you need a great attack. Wenger's biggest problem is being a tactical dufus, this above all else is the reason we are suffering from groundhog day.

Exactly.

Look at Mourinho's game plan against us with Chelsea. He knew that the only way to beat us was on the counterattack. He played two defensively minded players in midfield. Their only real job was to defend.

In our later years, he knew our passing under pressure was woeful, and that's what he took advantage of in the 6-0. Same managers, different weakness exploited on different occasions.

Pep, on the other hand, does not look at opponents as much, so he is similar to Wenger. However, even in this, he's different.

As Henry explained in the video, the first two thirds of the pitch are Pep's. You follow his tactical instructions to the letter on them. This is why Pep doesn't face 6-0's on a regular basis. He is risk-averse, and yet attacking. It is this contradiction that made him one of the best managers at Barcelona.

And then you have Wenger. Attack, attack, attack. Mind, he does coach attacking well, but he pays no attention to risk or opponent's players. And that is why even with the best team he had, he did not win the Champion's League.

Another example is how Wenger sets us up against big teams now. He tries to play the Mourinho way, but he is so uncomfortable doing it that even with 10 behind the ball, we look nowhere near solid.

[MecurialGooner]

great post and very well articulated.
you've impressed this old coach.

Thank you

[MecurialGooner]

"Attack wins you games, Defence wins you titles"

That's the old saying and it is absolutely the case. Just compare our title winning sides under Wenger to the one we have now. Yes the attacking talent was better, but our solidity at the back coming out of the GG era helped immeasurably. And as for GG's 6 trophies in 9 years, again a testament to a great defence winning titles. Look at Antonio Conte at Juventus and now Chelsea. Again he's able to coach a great defence, then incorporate the attacking talent.

Wenger's biggest problem is being a tactical dufus, this above all else is the reason we are suffering from groundhog day.

100%. This is the single biggest reason we haven't won a title in 13 years. Once the truly great players who can win games all on their own had been sold, it now falls upon a manager to get the best out of their current squad. And in order to do that you have to put in a lot of work on the training pitch. Including having a sound tactical plan for each match, tailored to negate your opponents strengths and emphasize their weaknesses.

His tactical naivety and inability to adapt to the opponent has held this club back for too long.

[coach8smallball]

Coach8 - over analysation is the reason Guardiola and Mourinho were so successful, players and staff commented on the thoroughness of preparation both managers have for games, analysing individual opposing players.

Wenger is a shit defensive coach, much better offensive. But we all know to win leagues you need a great defence more than you need a great attack. Wenger's biggest problem is being a tactical dufus, this above all else is the reason we are suffering from groundhog day.

I agree to a point, but even with pep he can be involved way too much. in my opinion (which isn't much), there has to be a balance between infusing your style of play as a coach and allowing the players to play to their strengths. in the pros, to me, it's a lot tougher because of the egos involved, etc.

at younger ages, it's easier to have more of an influence of the players because respect is more readily given. if a manager at top level doesn't have the player's respect, forgetaboutit.

one more thing about pep, I think he's learning the hard way that pragmaticism wins out in the epl. it's fine and dandy to have your die hard possession oriented system, but sometimes your opponent just happens to be better and a smarter approach is needed.

now on the comments about defense.....yes wenger is a crappy defensive coach....but it still doesn't make sense. defense is a proven science, offensive side of the ball isn't. one includes the pressure, cover, balance and depth. the other is more fluid and requires more skill to where the players have more freedom.

so why are we so bad on defense? at this level, defense should be 2nd hand nature and innate. just my two cents worth....

[theHotHead]

Pep, on the other hand, does not look at opponents as much, so he is similar to Wenger. However, even in this, he's different.

As Henry explained in the video, the first two thirds of the pitch are Pep's. You follow his tactical instructions to the letter on them. This is why Pep doesn't face 6-0's on a regular basis. He is risk-averse, and yet attacking. It is this contradiction that made him one of the best managers at Barcelona.

But thats not the case though, apparently Guardiola studies opponents meticulously trying to find flaws

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3543768/Pep-Guardiola-master-mind-Awareness-preparation-key-Catalan-s-success-gets-ready-set-Manchester-City-bunker-pore-footage-opponents.html

[The Mountain that Rides]

Coach8 - over analysation is the reason Guardiola and Mourinho were so successful, players and staff commented on the thoroughness of preparation both managers have for games, analysing individual opposing players.

Wenger is a shit defensive coach, much better offensive. But we all know to win leagues you need a great defence more than you need a great attack. Wenger's biggest problem is being a tactical dufus, this above all else is the reason we are suffering from groundhog day.

I agree to a point, but even with pep he can be involved way too much. in my opinion (which isn't much), there has to be a balance between infusing your style of play as a coach and allowing the players to play to their strengths. in the pros, to me, it's a lot tougher because of the egos involved, etc.

at younger ages, it's easier to have more of an influence of the players because respect is more readily given. if a manager at top level doesn't have the player's respect, forgetaboutit.

one more thing about pep, I think he's learning the hard way that pragmaticism wins out in the epl. it's fine and dandy to have your die hard possession oriented system, but sometimes your opponent just happens to be better and a smarter approach is needed.

now on the comments about defense.....yes wenger is a crappy defensive coach....but it still doesn't make sense. defense is a proven science, offensive side of the ball isn't. one includes the pressure, cover, balance and depth. the other is more fluid and requires more skill to where the players have more freedom.

so why are we so bad on defense? at this level, defense should be 2nd hand nature and innate. just my two cents worth....

Obviously good movement and creating overloads is anathema to good defensive positioning, especially if the players are just told to express themselves and figure things out when they haven't been given any of the tools needed to recognise what a tactically astute manager is up to - because Wenger lacks these tools himself.

Good positional sense would need to be coached into their attacking play, and Wenger has no clue how to do this, nor even the ability to recognise that this is necessary. Plus good communication is necessary to defend well and, unlike Tony Adams, our current players are the sort to mime along to national anthems, not belt them out like Tony Adams used to do. Which is indicative of their attitude towards shouting to each other about picking up runners, positioning etc as well. They're just not outgoing enough to do what is needed.