The general boxing thread

[jayramfootball]

Frankly, I do not care. The fight never happened and there's zero point in discussng it at this point.

It's about as pointless as discussing who would win between prime Muhammad Ali and prime Mike Tyson.

I just don't like Joshua slander when he objectively has a much better record.

A much better record than who?

Wilder

You say much better, how is it much better? A past it Klitschko?? Who else?

Im not having Parker, Takam, Whyte et al, when he fights a proper heavyweight (not Parker) with a modicum of actual boxing ability he loses!

Wilder's list is worse but I can't say AJ's is "much better"

Wilder would have beaten Joshua - unless Joshua literally just ran away for 12 rounds as he did vs Ruiz in their second fight.
Difference is Wilder actually has a chin and can still get power in his shots when hurt.
Josuha gets hit and takes an age to recover.
Joshua is the better technical boxer but he would not have been able to last the distance.

Fighters like Ortiz would have beaten Joshua too.

[Jedi]

Imo, AJ's chin is average. When I think of "weak chin" I think of Amir Khan or David Price. Aka a gust of wind blows and they're already dancing. AJs not like that.

He's taken huge shots off of Klitschko, Whyte, Ruiz and Dubois and got up and continued fighting. Yes, the ability to recover is not good enough but he's shown he can eat huge shots and get up/stay up + occasionally even turn the fight around (Klitschko, Whyte).

Even vs Dubois, he got up off the canvas 2 or 3 times and then managed to hurt him before overcommitting and getting knocked out.

Joshua is the better technical boxer but he would not have been able to last the distance.

I have no idea why you believe this. Wilder generally fights at a really slow pace and literally gives away rounds trying to lull his opponent into a false sense of security so that he can spring out his right hand and end the fight with one shot.

That's the opposite of how what AJ has lost to in the past, which is pressure and not giving him a second to breathe.

Fighters like Ortiz would have beaten Joshua too.

You can believe that, but let's be clear, Ortiz has done absolutely nothing in his career.

His only claim to fame and his legacy is hurting Wilder in their first fight and that's it. He hasn't done anything before or since. Nearly got knocked out by Charles Martin, who AJ dispatched in 2 rounds.

[jayramfootball]

Imo, AJ's chin is average. When I think of "weak chin" I think of Amir Khan or David Price. Aka a gust of wind blows and they're already dancing. AJs not like that.

He's taken huge shots off of Klitschko, Whyte, Ruiz and Dubois and got up and continued fighting. Yes, the ability to recover is not good enough but he's shown he can eat huge shots and get up/stay up + occasionally even turn the fight around (Klitschko, Whyte).

Even vs Dubois, he got up off the canvas 2 or 3 times and then managed to hurt him before overcommitting and getting knocked out.

Joshua is the better technical boxer but he would not have been able to last the distance.

I have no idea why you believe this. Wilder generally fights at a really slow pace and literally gives away rounds trying to lull his opponent into a false sense of security so that he can spring out his right hand and end the fight with one shot.

That's the opposite of how what AJ has lost to in the past, which is pressure and not giving him a second to breathe.

Fighters like Ortiz would have beaten Joshua too.

You can believe that, but let's be clear, Ortiz has done absolutely nothing in his career.

His only claim to fame and his legacy is hurting Wilder in their first fight and that's it. He hasn't done anything before or since. Nearly got knocked out by Charles Martin, who AJ dispatched in 2 rounds.

Joshua can't take a punch.
It's not that he goes down easily, it's that he takes so long to recover.

[Jedi]

Yes, that's why he's come unstuck against pressure fighters. But Wilder is not a pressure fighter. If they ever fought AJ would probably be the aggressor and would get the better out of their exchanges.

Wilder could still win, but in my mind, he would probably have to climb off the canvas to do it. It would be a very difficult fight.

Keep in mind, you're the one positing Wilder would beat AJ. I'm saying It's a 50/50, maybe a 60/40 for AJ.

[theHotHead]

Well if most fans didn't know about Ruiz, i guess that means he was a bum and comparable to Bolton.

What kind of argument is this?

And I don't know what you're trying to prove? That AJ is shit? No he's not, and as it stands, I can't think of any fighter other than Usyk who will clearly and obviously have a greater legacy.

Right now, for me, it is:
1) Usyk
2) Fury
3) AJ

And there isn't much between 2 and 3.

With Wilder, I still believe in his prime he could've beaten many top heavyweights but I have no idea where to put him.

He's been in entertaining fights with Fury but never beat him. His greatest win is Ortiz, who's another hypejob because he doesn't have a single credible win on his record.

Wilder was knocking out bums who, im not subscribing to the view he is/was the most dangerous puncher around.
He lost all 3 fights to Fury and Fury was fat and ring rusty in the first fight too.

I don't think Fury took Usyk seriously, Usyk isn't a big puncher and with Fury's boxing skill he should comfortably have beaten him especially given the difference in weight. We will see what happens in the rematch.

I dont think A J is shit, I think he is very limited

[theHotHead]

Yes, that's why he's come unstuck against pressure fighters. But Wilder is not a pressure fighter. If they ever fought AJ would probably be the aggressor and would get the better out of their exchanges.

Wilder could still win, but in my mind, he would probably have to climb off the canvas to do it. It would be a very difficult fight.

Keep in mind, you're the one positing Wilder would beat AJ. I'm saying It's a 50/50, maybe a 60/40 for AJ.

I would lean 60/40 to Wilder because I don't see AJ not getting tagged. But you are right, AJ has shown resilience so its very difficult to call that one

Now that AJ lost its not a bad idea for them to fight, last chance saloon for both of them and a win arguably puts them in the conversation again.

[theHotHead]

Thoughts on Martin Bakole??

I think he is a problem for everyone !!

[Jedi]

I don't think Fury took Usyk seriously, Usyk isn't a big puncher and with Fury's boxing skill he should comfortably have beaten him especially given the difference in weight. We will see what happens in the rematch.

No chance he didn't.

Fury knows boxing. He acts like an idiot for the cameras, but he knew full well how good Usyk is. Media hype aside, even before their fight, Usyk's achievements overshadowed anything Tyson Fury has done.

Olympic gold medalist, cleaned out the cruiserweight division completely (arguably best CW of all time), beat AJ x2 and then Dubois.

Tyson Fury got into the best shape he can be in at this point, and he was switched on from the first bell. He just got beat by the better man.

And he's going to be beat again in December.

[theHotHead]

The Fury/Usyk fight made no sense, we saw a "shot-shy" Fury, like he was scared to throw his fists. It was almost like the fight against Ngannou put him in his shell - it was a similar performance !!!

If the aggressive version of Fury that came to knock Wilder out in fights 2 snd 3 turned up Usyk stood no chance at all of winning, Fury would be too big and heavy for little Usyk, size matters. But we saw Fury the pussycat versus Usyk. Thats why I say he didn't talk him seriously. Before the Ngannou fight not many people gave Usyk a hope in hell of beating Fury who destroyed Wilder.

Well, had Joshua not been defensive against Usyk there is no way Usyk would've won, but he too was shot-shy. Again, Joshua is just too big and he has genuine knockout power, but since losing to Ruiz he has looked scared to throw hands. An aggressive AJ beats Usyk comfortably.

[jayramfootball]

The Fury/Usyk fight made no sense, we saw a "shot-shy" Fury, like he was scared to throw his fists. It was almost like the fight against Ngannou put him in his shell - it was a similar performance !!!

If the aggressive version of Fury that came to knock Wilder out in fights 2 snd 3 turned up Usyk stood no chance at all of winning, Fury would be too big and heavy for little Usyk, size matters. But we saw Fury the pussycat versus Usyk. Thats why I say he didn't talk him seriously. Before the Ngannou fight not many people gave Usyk a hope in hell of beating Fury who destroyed Wilder.

Well, had Joshua not been defensive against Usyk there is no way Usyk would've won, but he too was shot-shy. Again, Joshua is just too big and he has genuine knockout power, but since losing to Ruiz he has looked scared to throw hands.

Fury's zenith was the trilogy with Wilder.
More specifically the second fight with Wilder.
I don't think he really took the Usyk fight as seriously.
Wasn't it delayed by injury or something?

[Jedi]

The Fury/Usyk fight made no sense, we saw a "shot-shy" Fury, like he was scared to throw his fists. It was almost like the fight against Ngannou put him in his shell - it was a similar performance !!!

If the aggressive version of Fury that came to knock Wilder out in fights 2 snd 3 turned up Usyk stood no chance at all of winning, Fury would be too big and heavy for little Usyk, size matters. But we saw Fury the pussycat versus Usyk. Thats why I say he didn't talk him seriously. Before the Ngannou fight not many people gave Usyk a hope in hell of beating Fury who destroyed Wilder.

Well, had Joshua not been defensive against Usyk there is no way Usyk would've won, but he too was shot-shy. Again, Joshua is just too big and he has genuine knockout power, but since losing to Ruiz he has looked scared to throw hands. An aggressive AJ beats Usyk comfortably.

You're watching but you do not know what you're seeing.

They're not shot-shy, they just can't get their punches off against Usyk because he's not there to be hit. Not that Usyk is the greatest defensive boxer of all time but there's a night and day difference vs their other opponents.

Watch Wilder's footwork, he is flat footed half the time, and he doesn't know what he's doing. Usyk has the best footwork out of any heavyweight.He avoids being on the center line, he's in constant motion, he has good head movement, he has better reflexes, and he sets a pace that tires bigger heavyweights after a few rounds.

If Joshua was more aggressive, he would've got knocked out. Do you know who is aggressive? Dubois. Beat the brakes off of Joshua in a Mike Tyson style performance. Look at him against Usyk. Can't land those same punches? Was he scared? No, Usyk wasn't there to be hit like that because he's more disciplined and more mobile.

He's a better boxer than Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua. That's why he won. Stop with the cope.

Fury's zenith was the trilogy with Wilder.
More specifically the second fight with Wilder.
I don't think he really took the Usyk fight as seriously.
Wasn't it delayed by injury or something?

The best version of Fury is the guy that fought Klitschko. The reflexes and speed were never the same after the long break.

And the fight was delayed due to a cut. So Fury basically had two back-to-back camps, hit his perfect weight (around 260) and trained his ass off. JUst got beat by a better man.

[theHotHead]

I actually agree with most of what you wrote. What I don't agree with is:

Usyk speed and movement too much for Fury - every boxing commentator and pundit says Fury has the best movement of all the heavyweights, we saw that elusiveness when he fought Klitschko, we saw it in patches against Wilder in fight 1. Had Fury been aggressive against Usyk it wouldn't have been difficult to tie him up and lean on him. There is no way Usyk would be able to cope with that extra 30lbs leaning on him, but we didn't see it.

Dubois was robbed - Dubois won that fight against Usyk, low blow my arse !!

[Jedi]

I actually agree with most of what you wrote. What I don't agree with is:

Usyk speed and movement too much for Fury - every boxing commentator and pundit says Fury has the best movement of all the heavyweights, we saw that elusiveness when he fought Klitschko, we saw it in patches against Wilder in fight 1. Had Fury been aggressive against Usyk it wouldn't have been difficult to tie him up and lean on him. There is no way Usyk would be able to cope with that extra 30lbs leaning on him, but we didn't see it.

Dubois was robbed - Dubois won that fight against Usyk, low blow my arse !!

Every boxing commentator? More like every British commentator and pundit says this. They're wrong.

He doesn't have the best movement of all heavyweights. Especially not at this stage of his career. He has shown unbelievable movement for a man of his size, but he can't move like the smaller guys and especially not like Usyk.

Here's a video that was posted more than a month before they fought and actually addresses some of the ways Fury was overhyped (skip to 2:00):



And he actually ended up calling the fight perfectly.

[theHotHead]

See, I don't think Usyk is that great, I think he is good, nothing more, but when I look at boxers in the past that I rated as great Usyk just doesn't compare for me.

Perhaps like football, there is a dearth in talent at those heavier weights, we are seeing the same 6-8 heavyweights fumble their way through fights, fighting each other because they keep losing to each other.