The general boxing thread

[DiamondGooner]

Destroyed may of been hyperbole.

But your not telling me anything I don't already know .............. but Leonard won that fight.

If you think that's bad Canelo got a draw in a match he clearly lost against GGG 1 using that exact game plan of last 30 secs, fact is Marvin was frustrated all night long walking after Leonard, I'd have to watch the fight again but from what I remember Hagler barely landed.

[Va-Va-Voom]

Destroyed may of been hyperbole.

But your not telling me anything I don't already know .............. but Leonard won that fight.

If you think that's bad Canelo got a draw in a match he clearly lost against GGG 1 using that exact game plan of last 30 secs, fact is Marvin was frustrated all night long walking after Leonard, I'd have to watch the fight again but from what I remember Hagler barely landed.

Rewatch it, it remains one of the most controversial decisions of all time.

67% controversy rating according to fans who scored it -

http://www.eyeonthering.com/boxing/supe ... ay-leonard

[DiamondGooner]

I just finished watching it ..............

I counted punches and exchanges landed and won, Leonard simply landed more and had more punch volume, he also especially early, landed clean shots, Marvin had more clean shots after half way through the fight.
Even when Marvin was winning a round Leonard just bombed him with combo's which evened it back up.

Sugar Ray (118) – Hagler (114)

Rd 1
10 – 9

Rd 2
10 – 9

Rd 3
10 – 9

Rd 4
10 – 9

Rd 5
10 – 10 (possibly haglers but more a draw)

Rd 6
10 – 9

Rd 7
9 – 10

Rd 8
10 – 10

Rd 9
10 – 10

Rd 10
10 - 9

Rd 11
10 – 10

Rd 12
9 – 10

[Va-Va-Voom]

Fair enough, but that's very wide imo.

EDIT:

Just seen you have four even rounds.

That is quite ridiculous and makes me believe those are rounds you think Hagler won but scored them even to benefit Leonard and your preconceived notion that he won the fight.

Anyway, your scorecard proves just how inconclusive the result is.

You have 4 swing rounds that you saw as even, give two of those to Hagler (which you know you could've) and you would have had a draw.

[DiamondGooner]

Fair enough, but that's very wide imo.

EDIT:

Just seen you have four even rounds.

That is quite ridiculous and makes me believe those are rounds you think Hagler won but scored them even to benefit Leonard and your preconceived notion that he won the fight.

Anyway, your scorecard proves just how inconclusive the result is.

You have 4 swing rounds that you saw as even, give two of those to Hagler (which you know you could've) and you would have had a draw.

Sorry but no.

I have no dog in this fight, I have no favourite between Hagler and Leonard.

The honest truth is, there were some rounds that I was "trying to give to Hagler" is the fact of it, but Leonard's flurry of volume which were landing mean't the single punches landed by Hagler were being met with 3-4 punches in return, so no a round scored a draw is not as you put it a swing round ......... it is a draw, i.e it couldn't be given either way as the back and forth amounted to equal.

So no, when I score a round a draw .......... its because it is in fact a draw, counting punches landed and exchanges won is not a biased exercise its one of fact.

Look at those rounds yourself, I've made my findings clear to be scrutinised.

[Va-Va-Voom]

Scoring even rounds is frowned upon.

Even rounds are typically used when there is very little action, in a fight like Leonard vs Hagler you should be able to find separation.

To have four in a single fight is unheard of but whatever, it's your opinion after all.

[UFGN]

Corruption in boxing must be rife

There are few sports where the referee has such direct influence on the outcome. And the scoring seems to be very open to interpretation

[Marsbar100]

Probably the most corrupt sport on the planet, Canelo getting a draw for the rematch was laughable lol

[Va-Va-Voom]

Corruption in boxing must be rife

There are few sports where the referee has such direct influence on the outcome. And the scoring seems to be very open to interpretation

There are four main scoring criteria: effective aggression, ring generalship, defense and hard and clean punches.

But yes, it is subjective and entirely dependent on an individual's preference.

[DiamondGooner]

Scoring even rounds is frowned upon.

Even rounds are typically used when there is very little action, in a fight like Leonard vs Hagler you should be able to find separation.

To have four in a single fight is unheard of but whatever, it's your opinion after all.

I don't give a damn what's "frowned upon" you say they're given for very little action, what's the difference between little action or lots of action equally by both parties?

I don't mind re-watching those 4 rounds again but from what I remember the likely outcome would be about even of those drawn rounds so it would no effect on the outcome.

Clearly Hagler is a favourite of yours but I don't score fights based on your bias, I call it as the action dictates it.

Someone can't win a round unless the other person actually lost, got out pointed etc.

Fact is me and two other judges all saw it the same way.

Judge JoJo Guerra, whose 118–110 scorecard for Leonard

Judge Dave Moretti, who scored it 115–113 for Leonard:

Lou Filippo, who scored it 115–113 for Hagler

Lou Filippo's reasoning for giving Hagler the fight is dumb as fk "Body shots and was the aggressor" that is weak, aggression in itself is not a scoring factor, effective aggression is, what's the point of chasing the opponent if your just getting punched in the face and not landing back?.
Leonard landed more punches, simple as that, he also fought back every time Hagler tried to press and was getting on top of him which neutralized that scoring away from Hagler.

Hagler got out fought and out pointed and the reason for this is simple ........... he didn't get going till round 5 and by that time he was now 4 rounds down in a 12 round fight, he never recovered from that slow start, that's the real story of the fight.

Also do you consider Hagler a better MW than Bernard Hopkins?

[Losmeister]

Corruption in boxing must be rife

There are few sports where the referee has such direct influence on the outcome. And the scoring seems to be very open to interpretation

There are four main scoring criteria: effective aggression, ring generalship, defense and hard and clean punches.

But yes, it is subjective and entirely dependent on an individual's preference.

related b ut indirectly... on scoring

How did mcgregor get 8 pts for getting his assed kciked for 5 min in rnd 2 vs Khabib???

guy could bleed to death they';d give him 8 p;ts

[Rockape]

Bring back Jim Watt.....he always marked the scores accurately. He was one guy I don't think I ever disagreed with.

[Va-Va-Voom]

The 118-110 scorecard in favor of Leonard is one of the worst scorecards in history, so we can throw that right out the window.

That in no way reflects reality.

The difference between scoring a round even when it has a lot of action is there is a lot to choose from, you should be able to find something that one fighter did better than the other.

I don't have a bias toward Hagler; I've scored the fight many times and I always have it within a round - whether for Hagler, Leonard or a draw.

And I know you and the other judges had Leonard winning, my initial point is it remains one of the most controversial fights of all time.

Many people think Hagler won and in my eyes you can never get a conclusive winner. If you think Leonard did than fair enough, I just don't agree with how you got there (four even rounds).

If I watched it 100 times I'd score it differently each time, it's just one of those fights.

And yes, Hagler is a better middleweight than Hopkins.

Bernard is certainly up there though as is Roy Jones and Carlos Monzon.

@ Los

MMA and boxing scoring is different.

For one thing in MMA you don't automatically lose a point if you are knocked down.

10-8 rounds in MMA are quite rare, so the fact Khabib won round 2 10-8 just demonstrates how dominant he was.

10-8 is as wide as it can get in MMA, as far as I know there has never been a 10-7 round.

In theory a 10-7 round shouldn't exist because if one fighter is that dominant it should be stopped by the referee.

[DiamondGooner]

Hmmm I don't know about that.

I'd have B-Hop as the favorite, at 6ft vs 5'8 he'd likely box Haglers ears off, unlike Hearn B-hop won't try to slug with Hagler.

I can't see Hagler closing and trapping B-Hop enough, could happen but Hopkins is very versatile.

[Va-Va-Voom]

Hmmm I don't know about that.

I'd have B-Hop as the favorite, at 6ft vs 5'8 he'd likely box Haglers ears off, unlike Hearn B-hop won't try to slug with Hagler.

I can't see Hagler closing and trapping B-Hop enough, could happen but Hopkins is very versatile.

Are you talking about who is greater in terms of reign as MW champion or who would win if they fought each other?

The two don't always go hand in hand. Styles make fights and all.

Hopkins is a nightmare match up for anyone, he knows the dark arts - headbutts and rabbit punches -and he is a superb boxer.

Hagler's boxing ability is underrated though, don't forget he can fight orthodox or southpaw and brawl with the best of them.

I think Hagler could make it ugly and win.

While on this subject, I think James Toney at his best could have beat just about anyone at MW.

The most naturally gifted boxer I've ever seen, he was like a throwback fighter of the 40s fighting in the 90s.

I love fighters that have that old school style, B Hop is another.