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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:47 am

Power n Glory wrote:Lacazette and Willock in July against Wolves. Willock with the assist Laca with the goal.

Before that Laca came of the bench to get the assist against Southampton in June setting up Willock. Before that Lacac got a goal and assist when coming on against Newcastle in a 5 minute cameo back in February.

Nketiah came off the bench to score against West Ham to win us the game.this season.

Nelson has done anything of note off the bench and Willian has only come off from the bench for us once in his short career at Arsenal.

When was the last time any of those players ran a game? When was the last tome they were motm for a game?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:50 am

Power n Glory wrote:
starmandb wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I don't get any argument along the lines of, as poor as we have been creatively Ozil would be of no benefit.

Thats total bull crap.


Thats just the same old rhetoric from Ozil critics. Their criticism is not invalid that his impact has diminished compared to his earlier years. But its their constant refusal to come up with a single viable name in the current squad when asked about a better alternative for Ozil that makes me laugh. They keep saying Ozil is past it yet he's still the best creative mid we got but the Ozil critics won't admit that cuz they're blinded by their agendas. Its one thing to say Ozil shouldn't play over someone like Havertz, Firminho, Fernandez et al, but to say that he doesn't deserve to play while we trot out rubbish like Willock, Nelson, Willian etc is lunacy.


That's great. But tell me the last time Ozil had an impact against Man City and helped us win the game?

The 2-1 win at the emirates just before Xmas 2015
Was very good from start to finish and set up both goals


Cheers, Starman. 2015 it is.

Well done for destroying your own argument. When was the last time any of the players quoted had an impact against Man City and helped us win the game?

I will answer, never.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:52 am

VCC wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
VCC wrote:Arteta system is one of press with out the ball this is something asked of all the players with the possibility of putting your foot in to win the ball.
That one factor is why Ozil wont be picked and probably never will again for Arsenal.the gaffer ain't going to ask for something to be a constant player must do, then exempt someone from that


LOL!

When you're down a goal and chasing the game, you don't keep relying on pressing and keep passing the ball sideways in your own half. You throw out your attacking subs, change tactics and you go for it. Thats where you throw someone like Ozil out there with 20 mins remaining and see what that does. Based on the 2nd half performance vs Man City with 20 mins to go, there was ZERO evidence that we were going to produce any attacking threat with the tactics we were employing. No one is asking that Ozil be an undroppable starter. But he sure as hell should be used in situations where plan A aint working.

Arteta is in a dick measuring contest with Ozil cuz Ozil wouldn't succumb to Arteta's rather bizarre decision to get involved with the players' paycut proposal and that has pissed Arteta off. He's absolutely clueless on the offensive side of the game and has shown no ability to change tactics midway through the game if his Mourinho style isn't working.

Didnt read a word past your opening couple of lines.
Point is play Ozil and you will be a goal down.
We are behind many other clubs now at possession based football,playing a passenger when we dont have the ball isn't an option, and with that point I agree with the gaffer leave the man at home on the playstation

Absolute nonsense when neither Pepe or Willian offer nothing either when we don't have the ball.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:43 am

theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
starmandb wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I don't get any argument along the lines of, as poor as we have been creatively Ozil would be of no benefit.

Thats total bull crap.


Thats just the same old rhetoric from Ozil critics. Their criticism is not invalid that his impact has diminished compared to his earlier years. But its their constant refusal to come up with a single viable name in the current squad when asked about a better alternative for Ozil that makes me laugh. They keep saying Ozil is past it yet he's still the best creative mid we got but the Ozil critics won't admit that cuz they're blinded by their agendas. Its one thing to say Ozil shouldn't play over someone like Havertz, Firminho, Fernandez et al, but to say that he doesn't deserve to play while we trot out rubbish like Willock, Nelson, Willian etc is lunacy.


That's great. But tell me the last time Ozil had an impact against Man City and helped us win the game?

The 2-1 win at the emirates just before Xmas 2015
Was very good from start to finish and set up both goals


Cheers, Starman. 2015 it is.

Well done for destroying your own argument. When was the last time any of the players quoted had an impact against Man City and helped us win the game?

I will answer, never.


2015! Five years ago. Ozil's best ever season for us. You've all admitted he's not as good as he once was so......after months out, seasons of not coming close to his best, do you honestly think he'll recapture that form?

With the exception of Laca, the other players mentioned only just started their Arsenal careers last season.

Lacazette started the game the last time we beat City. In his debut season 17/18 he came off the bench to score away from home against City.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby VCC » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:08 am

theHotHead wrote:
VCC wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
VCC wrote:Arteta system is one of press with out the ball this is something asked of all the players with the possibility of putting your foot in to win the ball.
That one factor is why Ozil wont be picked and probably never will again for Arsenal.the gaffer ain't going to ask for something to be a constant player must do, then exempt someone from that


LOL!

When you're down a goal and chasing the game, you don't keep relying on pressing and keep passing the ball sideways in your own half. You throw out your attacking subs, change tactics and you go for it. Thats where you throw someone like Ozil out there with 20 mins remaining and see what that does. Based on the 2nd half performance vs Man City with 20 mins to go, there was ZERO evidence that we were going to produce any attacking threat with the tactics we were employing. No one is asking that Ozil be an undroppable starter. But he sure as hell should be used in situations where plan A aint working.

Arteta is in a dick measuring contest with Ozil cuz Ozil wouldn't succumb to Arteta's rather bizarre decision to get involved with the players' paycut proposal and that has pissed Arteta off. He's absolutely clueless on the offensive side of the game and has shown no ability to change tactics midway through the game if his Mourinho style isn't working.

Didnt read a word past your opening couple of lines.
Point is play Ozil and you will be a goal down.
We are behind many other clubs now at possession based football,playing a passenger when we dont have the ball isn't an option, and with that point I agree with the gaffer leave the man at home on the playstation

Absolute nonsense when neither Pepe or Willian offer nothing either when we don't have the ball.

Both players track back into possition more than what Ozil would,
And both players you mention offer more going forward otherwise the gaffer wouldnt pick them
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:23 am

VCC wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
VCC wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
VCC wrote:Arteta system is one of press with out the ball this is something asked of all the players with the possibility of putting your foot in to win the ball.
That one factor is why Ozil wont be picked and probably never will again for Arsenal.the gaffer ain't going to ask for something to be a constant player must do, then exempt someone from that


LOL!

When you're down a goal and chasing the game, you don't keep relying on pressing and keep passing the ball sideways in your own half. You throw out your attacking subs, change tactics and you go for it. Thats where you throw someone like Ozil out there with 20 mins remaining and see what that does. Based on the 2nd half performance vs Man City with 20 mins to go, there was ZERO evidence that we were going to produce any attacking threat with the tactics we were employing. No one is asking that Ozil be an undroppable starter. But he sure as hell should be used in situations where plan A aint working.

Arteta is in a dick measuring contest with Ozil cuz Ozil wouldn't succumb to Arteta's rather bizarre decision to get involved with the players' paycut proposal and that has pissed Arteta off. He's absolutely clueless on the offensive side of the game and has shown no ability to change tactics midway through the game if his Mourinho style isn't working.

Didnt read a word past your opening couple of lines.
Point is play Ozil and you will be a goal down.
We are behind many other clubs now at possession based football,playing a passenger when we dont have the ball isn't an option, and with that point I agree with the gaffer leave the man at home on the playstation

Absolute nonsense when neither Pepe or Willian offer nothing either when we don't have the ball.

Both players track back into possition more than what Ozil would,
And both players you mention offer more going forward otherwise the gaffer wouldnt pick them


Incredible stuff. Again, last time we played Man City, Pepe started, we won, we kept a clean sheet and Pepe got an assist.

I don't agree with Willian playing the false 9 but I can see the logic in starting him against City because he helped Chelsea beat them back in June.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:29 am

If Arteta decides to give Ozil some game time, it would have to be a situation where he's prepared to play a 4-2-3-1 and against opponents where there is at least some precedent of success against the opponent and Ozil being instrumental.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby VCC » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:37 am

Any news on the squad possitions ?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Angelito » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:36 am

Power n Glory wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I don't get any argument along the lines of, as poor as we have been creatively Ozil would be of no benefit.

Thats total bull crap.


Thats just the same old rhetoric from Ozil critics. Their criticism is not invalid that his impact has diminished compared to his earlier years. But its their constant refusal to come up with a single viable name in the current squad when asked about a better alternative for Ozil that makes me laugh. They keep saying Ozil is past it yet he's still the best creative mid we got but the Ozil critics won't admit that cuz they're blinded by their agendas. Its one thing to say Ozil shouldn't play over someone like Havertz, Firminho, Fernandez et al, but to say that he doesn't deserve to play while we trot out rubbish like Willock, Nelson, Willian etc is lunacy.


That's great. But tell me the last time Ozil had an impact against Man City and helped us win the game?


Nobody has an issue with Ozil being benched. The problem is, he's not being benched! He's not even in the squad when he's out second highest earner.

And, he sure as heck isn't the worst player amongst those 25 here.

Ozil won't be here next season. Arteta will be. He won't be able to hide being Ozil for too much long. Arsenal fans won't be able to blame Ozil for long. The script will write itself soon.

I don't want my manager to say that losing 1-0 to this City side is "progress."


Do we know when Ozil last had an impact off the bench?


Strawman.

When was the last time half of our players ever had an impact in their entire careers?

The argument is simply that Ozil is a better than half of the players we have whether he's past it or not. It's another thing that he has been a bonafide starter for every manager he's ever played for until Emery happened.


Strawman? I've asked you a question.


That's a loaded question.

Here's a loaded question: When was the last time Henry scored in a cup final?

Doesn't mean you'd exclude him in cup finals.

If Ozil were being excluded against City and Liverpool, whilst playing in the EL and the League Cup, there wouldn't be any outrage. But that's not the case. He's being treated like he's no longer an Arsenal player, while still being on the club payroll.

My post wasn't City-specific. That was clear. You're going round and round when the argument from most about this is specific: why isn't Ozil playing at all? Why isn't he in the EL squad or playing in the League Cup?

It's not for footballing reasons. It has nothing to do with his performances.

That is the kernel of the argument. Nobody can convince anyone rational here that it is a good idea to pay him his salary not to play or get involved at all.

That is that. Using strawman fallacy to create an argument when there is none is frankly unneeded here. It is what it is.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby swipe right » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:38 am

Name a better creative midfielder at Arsenal than Ozil. Go on.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:58 am

Angelito wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
Angelito wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
theHotHead wrote:I don't get any argument along the lines of, as poor as we have been creatively Ozil would be of no benefit.

Thats total bull crap.


Thats just the same old rhetoric from Ozil critics. Their criticism is not invalid that his impact has diminished compared to his earlier years. But its their constant refusal to come up with a single viable name in the current squad when asked about a better alternative for Ozil that makes me laugh. They keep saying Ozil is past it yet he's still the best creative mid we got but the Ozil critics won't admit that cuz they're blinded by their agendas. Its one thing to say Ozil shouldn't play over someone like Havertz, Firminho, Fernandez et al, but to say that he doesn't deserve to play while we trot out rubbish like Willock, Nelson, Willian etc is lunacy.


That's great. But tell me the last time Ozil had an impact against Man City and helped us win the game?


Nobody has an issue with Ozil being benched. The problem is, he's not being benched! He's not even in the squad when he's out second highest earner.

And, he sure as heck isn't the worst player amongst those 25 here.

Ozil won't be here next season. Arteta will be. He won't be able to hide being Ozil for too much long. Arsenal fans won't be able to blame Ozil for long. The script will write itself soon.

I don't want my manager to say that losing 1-0 to this City side is "progress."


Do we know when Ozil last had an impact off the bench?


Strawman.

When was the last time half of our players ever had an impact in their entire careers?

The argument is simply that Ozil is a better than half of the players we have whether he's past it or not. It's another thing that he has been a bonafide starter for every manager he's ever played for until Emery happened.


Strawman? I've asked you a question.


That's a loaded question.

Here's a loaded question: When was the last time Henry scored in a cup final?


Doesn't mean you'd exclude him in cup finals.

If Ozil were being excluded against City and Liverpool, whilst playing in the EL and the League Cup, there wouldn't be any outrage. But that's not the case. He's being treated like he's no longer an Arsenal player, while still being on the club payroll.

My post wasn't City-specific. That was clear. You're going round and round when the argument from most about this is specific: why isn't Ozil playing at all? Why isn't he in the EL squad or playing in the League Cup?

It's not for footballing reasons. It has nothing to do with his performances.

That is the kernel of the argument. Nobody can convince anyone rational here that it is a good idea to pay him his salary not to play or get involved at all.

That is that. Using strawman fallacy to create an argument when there is none is frankly unneeded here. It is what it is.


The Henry example isn't just loaded it's silly because you don't play Cup finals two or three times a year! He's also not a player that's underperforming and being out performed by rookies and new additions in terms of goals and assists.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:58 am

VCC wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
VCC wrote:
gamechannel wrote:
VCC wrote:Arteta system is one of press with out the ball this is something asked of all the players with the possibility of putting your foot in to win the ball.
That one factor is why Ozil wont be picked and probably never will again for Arsenal.the gaffer ain't going to ask for something to be a constant player must do, then exempt someone from that


LOL!

When you're down a goal and chasing the game, you don't keep relying on pressing and keep passing the ball sideways in your own half. You throw out your attacking subs, change tactics and you go for it. Thats where you throw someone like Ozil out there with 20 mins remaining and see what that does. Based on the 2nd half performance vs Man City with 20 mins to go, there was ZERO evidence that we were going to produce any attacking threat with the tactics we were employing. No one is asking that Ozil be an undroppable starter. But he sure as hell should be used in situations where plan A aint working.

Arteta is in a dick measuring contest with Ozil cuz Ozil wouldn't succumb to Arteta's rather bizarre decision to get involved with the players' paycut proposal and that has pissed Arteta off. He's absolutely clueless on the offensive side of the game and has shown no ability to change tactics midway through the game if his Mourinho style isn't working.

Didnt read a word past your opening couple of lines.
Point is play Ozil and you will be a goal down.
We are behind many other clubs now at possession based football,playing a passenger when we dont have the ball isn't an option, and with that point I agree with the gaffer leave the man at home on the playstation

Absolute nonsense when neither Pepe or Willian offer nothing either when we don't have the ball.

Both players track back into possition more than what Ozil would,
And both players you mention offer more going forward otherwise the gaffer wouldnt pick them

Really, you think Ozil's omission has anyting to do with his ability ?!!!

Did you see the comments in the matchday thread, Willian did less than nothing, where is your stinging criticism of Willian ??
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby theHotHead » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:02 am

Power n Glory wrote:The Henry example isn't just loaded it's silly because you don't play Cup finals two or three times a year! He's also not a player that's underperforming and being out performed by rookies and new additions in terms of goals and assists.

Outperformed by which rookies ? Saka ? Who else ?

On the topic of Saka, most of the team are beng outperformed by him, so sshould we drop all of them then ?
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby Power n Glory » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:13 am

theHotHead wrote:
Power n Glory wrote:The Henry example isn't just loaded it's silly because you don't play Cup finals two or three times a year! He's also not a player that's underperforming and being out performed by rookies and new additions in terms of goals and assists.

Outperformed by which rookies ? Saka ? Who else ?

On the topic of Saka, most of the team are beng outperformed by him, so sshould we drop all of them then ?


Saka is one. Pepe is the new addition. Can't stand Willock but he scored 5 goals and 1 assist last year. Nelson...3 goals and 3 assist last season.

Ozil last year 1 goal and 3 assists. He played a similar amount of minutes as Willock and Nelson played less.

That doesn't mean they're better players either. It just means we're managing to get more out of them despite their limitations and limited game time.
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Re: Mesut Özil (10)

Postby EliteKiller » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:05 am

swipe right wrote:Name a better creative midfielder at Arsenal than Ozil. Go on.


So which two players would you leave out of the squad to squeeze Ozil in?
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