English Football Under Threat

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English Football Under Threat

Postby UFGN » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:48 pm

.

Ive decided to write down in a little more detail my opposition to the proposals to play a 39th league game abroad. I dont know if anyone will read it but I really need to get this off my chest.

1: The proposal would see an end to the most basic principle of sport... that it must be fair. Teams would be drawn against each other in a seeded draw for game 39 which would prevent the possibility of the top six teams being drawn against each other.

This leads to many potentially unfair scenarios, but I will highlight three:


SCENARIO ONE: Aston Villa, in sixth place are only one point ahead of Middlesborough in seventh. But Villa will not have to play the top five teams above them, including Man Utd, Arsenal etc because they are seeded. Subsequently Middlesborough, who are not seeded, are drawn against an in-form Chelsea and get beaten, while Villa are drawn against the league's worst team that year, lets say Birmingham, and comfortably win.

SCENARIO TWO: Derby, in 18th place are drawn against Arsenal and get beaten as expected.
While relegation rivals Wigan are "luckier" in the draw and play struggling Birmingham, who are in 13th place, and manage to get a valuable draw. Also, Wigan's game was played closer to home and they suffer less fatigue than their rivals.

SCENARIO THREE: Liverpool, in first place after a good start to the season, are handed a match against Everton, just outside the top six and also their local local rivals. They then face a mentally grueling match against an Everton team who are doing well anyway that season, and Liverpool get beaten. Meanwhile, their closest competitor for the title get Derby and cruise to an easy three points while resting several key players.


2: This is not just about messing about with the Premiership, but the top flight of English football as it has been for over 120 years. Not for any good reason, but just so a few rich people can get a little richer. And what of the money? 5 million a year for each club is the amount being talked about... its not even very much!! If the clubs are apparently willing to do this for only five million, what will they do next? If one match abroad, why not two? Why not four? Why not big adverts painted on the pitch and quarters instead of halves so we can have more advert breaks? You might scorn at that, but you would have also laughed at the possibility of premiership matches being played in Australia before these proposals were made public.

3: The press, or large sections of it, can not be trusted to report on this issue reliably because they have an interest in it going ahead. This is particularly true of the Sun, The Times, Sky News, Sky Sports etc. Notice haw the Sun, for example, seem to focus on the issues that are petty and irrelevant... eg the "honest, hardworking fan" not being able to afford to fly to Rio to watch his beloved club... this style of "dumbing down" journalism is corrupt and designed to avoid talking about the important issues, thus keeping opposition to a minimum.

For the same reason, polls of fans' opinions on the subject by the media should not usually be trusted.

4: If, for the reasons I laid out in point one, the Premiership is not fair and in addition is more a traveling circus than a serious football league, then where does that leave the integrity of the League Title? And even more importantly, where does it leave the integrity of the clubs?
I am an Arsenal fan. My club has built its very existence in recent years around trying to win the league each year. Its the bread and butter of what they do. So how can they be taken seriously if the prize they are trying to win is a world-wide laughing stock? They answer is, they can not.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:58 pm

This is a good post, and I agree, but the fact of the matter is the world moves for money, and this includes English football, I'm not saying its right, but a lot of the owners of these teams are foreign, most of the players are foreign, its an international league whether anybody wants to accept this or not, so its inevitable that this was going to happen. Similiar things have happened to our sports over here in the US, so it was only a matter of time before English football blew up and became global. I know all English don't see it this way, but you should be proud that your league is probably the best in the world. La Liga and Serie A would love to be in this position. Like I said, I'm not saying its right, but its the way of the world, its about money, everybody wants it, everybody needs it, and you'd be kidding yourself if you said otherwise. The extra money brought in can only make clubs stronger, and more competitve, and thats not a bad thing imo.

Having said all that I still think English football would be ok without it, but try telling the people that run the show that. They're blinded by the money.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby UFGN » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:21 pm

ChVint22 wrote:the fact of the matter is the world moves for money, and this includes English football

its an international league whether anybody wants to accept this or not, so its inevitable that this was going to happen.

Similiar things have happened to our sports over here in the US, so it was only a matter of time before English football blew up and became global.

you should be proud that your league is probably the best in the world.

The extra money brought in can only make clubs stronger, and more competitve, and thats not a bad thing imo.

.



The only reason this could go ahead is because of people like you who roll over and accept their favouite sports being shat on from a great hight. I dont mean that as a personal attack on you, but just listen to yourself. Read those quotes of yours ^^^ aloud and you will surely cringe with embarrassment. Where is your soul? Did you sell it to Rupert Murdoch? How much did you get for it?

I am perfectly aware of the financial benefits to a few people from the proposals but at the end of the day, a line has to be drawn somewhere. I like money as much as the next bloke but there has to be a time where you say, "wow there, hands off". You compare the proposals to American sports. So do I. And I am telling you that American Football in particular, and other mainstream US sports are a world-wide laughing stock for the majority of fans. Selling out one match at Wembley doest change that.

It is too late for American sports. Look at the amazing history of some of the baseball teams in america and they should be widely respected sporting institutions, but they are not. Not anywhere outside of America anyway, because of the circus that is American sport.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:29 pm

Up For Grabs Now wrote:
ChVint22 wrote:the fact of the matter is the world moves for money, and this includes English football

its an international league whether anybody wants to accept this or not, so its inevitable that this was going to happen.

Similiar things have happened to our sports over here in the US, so it was only a matter of time before English football blew up and became global.

you should be proud that your league is probably the best in the world.

The extra money brought in can only make clubs stronger, and more competitve, and thats not a bad thing imo.

.



The only reason this could go ahead is because of people like you who roll over and accept their favouite sports being shat on from a great hight. I dont mean that as a personal attack on you, but just listen to yourself. Read those quotes of yours ^^^ aloud and you will surely cringe with embarrassment. Where is your soul? Did you sell it to Rupert Murdoch? How much did you get for it?

I am perfectly aware of the financial benefits to a few people from the proposals but at the end of the day, a line has to be drawn somewhere. I like money as much as the next bloke but there has to be a time where you say, "wow there, hands off". You compare the proposals to American sports. So do I. And I am telling you that American Football in particular, and other mainstream US sports are a world-wide laughing stock for the majority of fans. Selling out one match at Wembley doest change that.

It is too late for American sports. Look at the amazing history of some of the baseball teams in america and they should be widely respected sporting institutions, but they are not. Not anywhere outside of America anyway, because of the circus that is American sport.



You couldn't be more wrong buddy, and that was a personal attack, even if you do try to butter it up and say that it aint'. I was actually agreeing with you, but you want to be hard headed and start a fight, I was just pointing out the obvious that you're to stubborn to want to accept. You can't control people, and you definately can't control people that are blinded by money. Just because the English could care less about American sports doesn't mean that they're not accepted world wide, the Japenese love American Baseball, and model their league after ours.

There is nothing I, or anyone can do about it, how far do you think your little petition is going to go. I hope that it does work, cause I don't want to see it happen, but wake the f**k up son, money is the root of all evil and that will never change.

I understand your passion, your love, I undestand how this will give you more pain than I can imagine, but until you face reality, you're only kidding yourself. ;)

Its not the end of the world, why wouldn't I want my favorite sport to be globally recognized, now thats not saying I would want them to have meaningful games in other parts of the world creating disadvantages to some teams each year. But why would I only want my country to fall in love with the sport I love, I can share. Apparently you can't.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby UFGN » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:36 pm

It is a falsity that only those who "accept" that they cant change bad things from happening are the ones that have a grip on reality. It is only because of that attitude that that is often the case, and if you cant see that, then it is you who needs to wake up.

I am not a deluded idealist. With strong opposition this can be stopped and needs to be stopped for the reasons I have outlined.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:42 pm

Up For Grabs Now wrote:It is a falsity that only those who "accept" that they cant change bad things from happening are the ones that have a grip on reality. It is only because of that attitude that that is often the case, and if you cant see that, then it is you who needs to wake up.

I am not a deluded idealist. With strong opposition this can be stopped and needs to be stopped for the reasons I have outlined.



I applaud what you're doing, and I agree, I will even sign your petition, but do you know how many petitions I've signed exactly like this? To many to count. Do you know how many actually helped? That would be a big fat ZERO.

Sports are entertainment, and entertainment is a business (and one of the most profitable in the world, if not the most), and whether you want to "accept" it or not, you're a customer.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby UFGN » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:59 pm

ChVint22 wrote:
Up For Grabs Now wrote:It is a falsity that only those who "accept" that they cant change bad things from happening are the ones that have a grip on reality. It is only because of that attitude that that is often the case, and if you cant see that, then it is you who needs to wake up.

I am not a deluded idealist. With strong opposition this can be stopped and needs to be stopped for the reasons I have outlined.



I applaud what you're doing, and I agree, I will even sign your petition, but do you know how many petitions I've signed exactly like this? To many to count. Do you know how many actually helped? That would be a big fat ZERO.

Sports are entertainment, and entertainment is a business (and one of the most profitable in the world, if not the most), and whether you want to "accept" it or not, you're a customer.

The petition is nothing to do with me. I just posted it and it will be only a small cog in a large wheel if these plans are defeated.

Again, not a personal attack but you seem to presume I am ignorant of the financial, and other, arguments for the proposal. I am perfectly aware of all the so called "benefits" and I simply disagree. In reality I should expect that most of the money will simply go on even bigger players wages, which will further increase disparity between the Prem and the other English leagues and that will be very damaging for English football overall.

Yes. I am a customer. I can withdraw my membership. I can opt not to buy replica shirts. I can go to matches and make my opposition clear by giving the board a hard time along with other fans. I can opt not to buy sky sports. I can campaign AGAINST england getting the World cup finals, thus embarrassing the english FA to oppose the plans.

Or, I could just sit on my arse and do nothing, because "its going to happen anyway" :roll:
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:11 pm

Up For Grabs Now wrote:
ChVint22 wrote:
Up For Grabs Now wrote:It is a falsity that only those who "accept" that they cant change bad things from happening are the ones that have a grip on reality. It is only because of that attitude that that is often the case, and if you cant see that, then it is you who needs to wake up.

I am not a deluded idealist. With strong opposition this can be stopped and needs to be stopped for the reasons I have outlined.



I applaud what you're doing, and I agree, I will even sign your petition, but do you know how many petitions I've signed exactly like this? To many to count. Do you know how many actually helped? That would be a big fat ZERO.

Sports are entertainment, and entertainment is a business (and one of the most profitable in the world, if not the most), and whether you want to "accept" it or not, you're a customer.

The petition is nothing to do with me. I just posted it and it will be only a small cog in a large wheel if these plans are defeated.

Again, not a personal attack but you seem to presume I am ignorant of the financial, and other, arguments for the proposal. I am perfectly aware of all the so called "benefits" and I simply disagree. In reality I should expect that most of the money will simply go on even bigger players wages, which will further increase disparity between the Prem and the other English leagues and that will be very damaging for English football overall.

Yes. I am a customer. I can withdraw my membership. I can opt not to buy replica shirts. I can go to matches and make my opposition clear by giving the board a hard time along with other fans. I can opt not to buy sky sports. I can campaign AGAINST england getting the World cup finals, thus embarrassing the english FA to oppose the plans.

Or, I could just sit on my arse and do nothing, because "its going to happen anyway" :roll:



I get were you're coming from, and sorry if I took it personally. No offense to you either, we're both Gooners here.

I think its more than just keeping this from happening, even if the petition does keep the Prem from going overseas, thats only a small battle. It won't change the minds of the people that run the show. I guess that was my point.

I definately don't think they should play games abroad that have meaning and could effect the standings, but I don't think a few friendlies or pre-season games would hurt too much. Maybe a little fatigue to the players is all.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby She_Gunner_Wales » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:55 pm

OK despite a bit of a heated debate here, this is a good thread well written & i can see both sides here.
Looks like its calmed down, but please keep on track & not resort to any personal attacks. ;)
------------------------

Im totally against having an extra fixture for reasons already stated, as i said in the other thread this could be hugely damaging for smaller clubs fighting relegation for one, as well as some unlucky club having to play an extra game against the top 10, i dont like the way it is being seeded & i dont like the idea full stop.

Having said that, as Chvint has mentioned i have no problem with going abroad in pre-season, alot of clubs do overseas tours in this time, maybe something should be looked into where there is a patnership between premier league clubs rather than try to destroy our league because at the end of the day no matter what the footballing authorities say, be that the FA or the Premier League, this IS about money, not the love of the game.

ANd i WILL sign any petition against this, whether its heard or not! :9:
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby Fordy » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:17 pm

I just cant get over the fact that all we ever hear is managers moaning about the amount of games teams play and the prem should be made smaller but then you mention a few million pound and all of a sudden we need more games in a season.

If this happens the first manager to say there is too many games should be sacked instantly
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English Football Under Threat

Postby SE13 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:56 pm

I personally fail to see that any good would come out of this 39th game, other than to line the pockets of the fatcats, and increase the gulf of difference financially between the elite and the rest.

As pointed out, our managers already complain about the amount of games played, without adding a further game, and a few thousand miles round trip to boot.

The extra game could NEVER be fairly worked out. Each club plays each other twice, it's the way it's always been, and should be the way it remains. The hard fact is that no one team should be allowed an advantage, because if they are, it's downright cheating. Cheating the teams, cheating the players, and more importantly cheating the supporters, who would already be cheated out of a game because it's on the other side of The World.

The original idea is madness, and the subsequent media circus of hype defies belief. Why should we be forced to sell out? Because effectively, that is exactly what the game would be doing. And who benefits? It certainly isn't going to be those little clubs struggling week to week in League Two, clinging on to their survival by the generous nature of their merry band of 4,000 supporters. CSKA Fulham to have an extra £5m? That's just a drop in the ocean, so it wouldn't bother them one way or another. But those in power would be getting a whacking share of media rights, sponsorship and I don't know what to line their pockets with. And that stinks!
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby UFGN » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:36 pm

SE13 is absolutely right in everything he said. A 39th game could never be fair.

And if I appeared to resort to a personal attack against ChVint22 I can assure you it was not meant to be. You simply can not express views like that and not expect a strong reaction, and it was his attitude I was attacking rather then him, because it represents the biggest obstacle of all in preventing all this nonsense... and that is resignation and apathy.

BTW, I am not against an out-of-season competition. You could for example, have a mini league or trophy competition between which ever teams finish in the top eight. Quarter finals, semi's, the final and a third-fourth play off. Great - everyone makes a few quid, which they could work out a way of sharing with the other clubs, the players play pre-season matches as they always do anyway, the punters get to see the biggest clubs in the league and the players all get some warm-weather training.
Then give it a fancy name like the Elite Premier League Trophy, buy a whacking great big trophy for the winner, and bob is your sister.

Just leave the league and the FA cup alone, thats all. :mad:
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby StLGooner » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:47 pm

Up For Grabs Now wrote:SE13 is absolutely right in everything he said. A 39th game could never be fair.

And if I appeared to resort to a personal attack against ChVint22 I can assure you it was not meant to be. You simply can not express views like that and not expect a strong reaction, and it was his attitude I was attacking rather then him, because it represents the biggest obstacle of all in preventing all this nonsense... and that is resignation and apathy.

BTW, I am not against an out-of-season competition. You could for example, have a mini league or trophy competition between which ever teams finish in the top eight. Quarter finals, semi's, the final and a third-fourth play off. Great - everyone makes a few quid, which they could work out a way of sharing with the other clubs, the players play pre-season matches as they always do anyway, the punters get to see the biggest clubs in the league and the players all get some warm-weather training.
Then give it a fancy name like the Elite Premier League Trophy, buy a whacking great big trophy for the winner, and bob is your sister.

Just leave the league and the FA cup alone, thats all. :mad:


No offense taken kind Sir, I think maybe my point was missed, and I didn't get it across to well. I was looking at this thing as a bigger picture. Not just trying to persuade the powers that be to NOT play a 39th game. To me you would have to change the way the world views money in order to change the ideas and the greed that comes along with running an entertainment business. At the end of the day when owners and presidents of businesses sit down at look at what is most important to them, I guarantee you they'll all point to money. As long as they keep selling tickets they don't care who shows up, they don't care if you've been a supporter and have been to every home match for the past 15 years. And trying to get these people to NOT think like that is what I was trying to say is going to be much harder to change.
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Re: English Football Under Threat

Postby UFGN » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:01 pm

As it happens the Asian football authorities have just issued a statement through their top man (who is also a top FIFA official) rejecting out of hand the principle of having Prem matches in their countries. (reported on BBC News, just trying to find a quote)

This is on top of the Japanese FA's rejection of the idea. So perhaps its going to be a little easier to see this madness off after all :D
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English Football Under Threat

Postby SE13 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:02 pm

Thing is, there are already countless tournaments taking place pre-season, "The Amsterdam Tournament", "The Emirates Cup", "The I Don't Know What Cup" and "The Debbie Does Dallas Cup" all of which make amazing amounts of money for the teams, players and sponsors, but not a penny for The FA..... And they don't like it!

Christ, they make millions just selling the games for media broadcast across The Globe as it is! Why the need to make more? Greed, that's what! And we would be fools to see it out.

We don't want it, we don't need it, and it would destroy the game as we know it.
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