Salary Cap/Wage Cap

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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Leody » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:54 pm

mogsy182gooner wrote:I know the mls is capped but didnt they change the rules when david beckham signed for galaxy?

I agree with yorkey it would have to be worldwide if it wasjust the premiership then everyone will bugger off to la liga and we wont have the best league in the world then. Think theres too big a gap now between the top and the bottom now money wise.



I'm sure Rach knows better than me, but I believe the MLS said you're allowed one player who you can pay as much as you want or something and his salary doesn't count towards the cap.
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby rachel83 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:56 pm

Leody wrote:I'm sure Rach knows better than me, but I believe the MLS said you're allowed one player who you can pay as much as you want or something and his salary doesn't count towards the cap.


The cap takes a hit of a max salary player: $400k (meaning the league pays that $400k because technically the league pays the players, not the owner, though the owner pays into the pot that the salaries are taken out of). After that, the owner has to pay the rest of the player's salary.

Guess that's kind of a lesson on salary caps/single-entity all in one :frogwink:
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby mogsy182gooner » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:59 pm

rachel83 wrote:
mogsy182gooner wrote:I know the mls is capped but didnt they change the rules when david beckham signed for galaxy?


They added a rule that each team can sign a player above the cap. It's called the Designated Player rule.


thats right, or the david beckham rule some papers were calling it lol Its prob different because it was david beckham and as the mls is a young league getting someone like beckham in the league will only do the league good so you can see the rule change maybe. But if they cap other leagues whats to stop them doing this. I think thats another reason a cap wont work here.
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Leody » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:15 pm

You know... the more I think about what separates the haves from the have-nots in football is it really player wages or is it transfer fees?

You don't hear as much about wages, more the ridiculous fees that are paid for players.

Perhaps a cap on fees would be a better solution?
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby StLGooner » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:21 pm

Leody wrote:
rachel83 wrote:I think Leody is right, but I also think Chvint is right. Parity sucks. Leody is right: It is frustrating. ChVint is right: I asked someone just the other day, “What is the point in supporting a consistently mid-table team that you know will never win anything significant?” Having parity in the Premiership would make it more exciting. Teams like Fulham would have a chance at winning the League. It wouldn’t just be the Top 4. Other fans would have a chance at knowing what it’s like to have a team that can win something without changing their childhood club or their local loyalty.


Big difference with the MLS and EPL though is relegation.

In the MLS, let's say your star player who is taking up 20% of your salary cap gets injured for the season in week one. It's going to be devastating and you'd most likely finish near the bottom of the league, but you'd be back at it in the top flight the next season. In the EPL, you'd most likely get relegated and could spend years and years just trying to get back. I don't want the long-term success of a club riding on a player's health.


Now you're just being silly. Thats no different than it is now, if Cesc got hurt today, we'd be screwed. They still have to pay him while he's hurt, the only thing is they maybe be able to go get a replacement, but they're certainly not going to go find another Cesc. Which is the way it would work with leagues that have salary caps. They'd get a replacement maybe, but no where near the same talent.

Anyway, my whole point about a cap is this. Sport is competition, and when it comes to competition, everyone should be able to play on the same playing field, it should start even. But with owners that can buy all the top players, then it doesnt' start out even, and it never will. End of.
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby StLGooner » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:24 pm

Leody wrote:You know... the more I think about what separates the haves from the have-nots in football is it really player wages or is it transfer fees?

You don't hear as much about wages, more the ridiculous fees that are paid for players.

Perhaps a cap on fees would be a better solution?



Yea I was thinking about that too, but I think if a cap was in place then what would that do to transfer fees, would they just go away? Or would it be more like in the US with trades and what not? That still wouldn't keep all the rich owners from buying all the top players though. :dontknow:
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby rachel83 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:25 pm

Regarding season ending injuries, there is a rule in MLS where you can replace the player but you can't cut him. You have to pay his salary at least through the end of the season. But that salary doesn't count against the cap anymore, it's strictly out of the owner's pocket.
That could work with your system, ChVint... Maybe?

Edit: Now I'm wondering if it's really until the end of the season, or until he's healed... crap I can't remember now... :( :oops:
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Leody » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:44 pm

ChVint22 wrote:
Leody wrote:
rachel83 wrote:I think Leody is right, but I also think Chvint is right. Parity sucks. Leody is right: It is frustrating. ChVint is right: I asked someone just the other day, “What is the point in supporting a consistently mid-table team that you know will never win anything significant?” Having parity in the Premiership would make it more exciting. Teams like Fulham would have a chance at winning the League. It wouldn’t just be the Top 4. Other fans would have a chance at knowing what it’s like to have a team that can win something without changing their childhood club or their local loyalty.


Big difference with the MLS and EPL though is relegation.

In the MLS, let's say your star player who is taking up 20% of your salary cap gets injured for the season in week one. It's going to be devastating and you'd most likely finish near the bottom of the league, but you'd be back at it in the top flight the next season. In the EPL, you'd most likely get relegated and could spend years and years just trying to get back. I don't want the long-term success of a club riding on a player's health.


Now you're just being silly. Thats no different than it is now, if Cesc got hurt today, we'd be screwed. They still have to pay him while he's hurt, the only thing is they maybe be able to go get a replacement, but they're certainly not going to go find another Cesc. Which is the way it would work with leagues that have salary caps. They'd get a replacement maybe, but no where near the same talent.

Anyway, my whole point about a cap is this. Sport is competition, and when it comes to competition, everyone should be able to play on the same playing field, it should start even. But with owners that can buy all the top players, then it doesnt' start out even, and it never will. End of.


That's not silly. Today we can afford to pay more for the other players on our squad because there is no cap. Our other players are better than they would be under a cap (theoretically) so it won't hurt us as much.

What would happen if you took LeBron James off the Cavs or Kobe from the Lakers? They'd be crap. The Cavs were something like 0-11 in games LeBron missed last year.

Look at Rachel's post about the MLS. She's already saying the squad is too thin to even compete in all competitions while they're all healthy.

Bold part: This is where I disagree and it's probably because I'm very business minded (and capitalistic). I don't think competition has to be even. If you can build a sustainable competitive advantage then more power to you and you should be rewarded for that. Arsenal, Madrid, Man U etc have all spent years getting to where they are today, they shouldn't be allowed to reap the rewards for their work.
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby StLGooner » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:53 pm

Bold part: This is where I disagree and it's probably because I'm very business minded (and capitalistic). I don't think competition has to be even. If you can build a sustainable competitive advantage then more power to you and you should be rewarded for that. Arsenal, Madrid, Man U etc have all spent years getting to where they are today, they shouldn't be allowed to reap the rewards for their work.



:rofll:

Build an advantage? I would agree with that. But how is having a owner with endless funds buying up all the best players building? Thats not building. Building is having a club that uses their resources and financial gains from good business practices and putting that toward the club. And I think you meant "should" in that last part, those clubs that have gained success and financial status thru years of hard work have every right to spend money, and even with a cap they still would, they worked hard and know how to run a business and they always will and it will always benefit them even if they had to work under a cap, because players would see that they run a good organization. Its the teams like Chelsea that haven't done shit then all of the sudden have a rich owner and now they have a history, at least so they say. :rolleyes:
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Leody » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:21 pm

ChVint22 wrote:
Bold part: This is where I disagree and it's probably because I'm very business minded (and capitalistic). I don't think competition has to be even. If you can build a sustainable competitive advantage then more power to you and you should be rewarded for that. Arsenal, Madrid, Man U etc have all spent years getting to where they are today, they shouldn't be allowed to reap the rewards for their work.



:rofll:

Build an advantage? I would agree with that. But how is having a owner with endless funds buying up all the best players building? Thats not building. Building is having a club that uses their resources and financial gains from good business practices and putting that toward the club. And I think you meant "should" in that last part, those clubs that have gained success and financial status thru years of hard work have every right to spend money, and even with a cap they still would, they worked hard and know how to run a business and they always will and it will always benefit them even if they had to work under a cap, because players would see that they run a good organization. Its the teams like Chelsea that haven't done shit then all of the sudden have a rich owner and now they have a history, at least so they say. :rolleyes:


Yeah, I meant to say should.

I fail to see how a cap wouldn't be removing the advantage they've built... A cap would remove the financial advantage they've built over their competition because you'd limit their ability to spend. The cap puts extra emphasis on the coaching and talent management of the club. That would probably be OK for Arsenal as long as Wenger is still here, but what happens when he leaves? Arsenal would have to replace him with an equal.

While I agree with you on clubs like Man City and Chelsea... that's their owner's prerogative to blow his own personal money. Where Arsenal still has an advantage is in the long-term. Abromavich's money may seem endless, it's not, nor is he. One day one of the two will run out, either his money or his willingness to spend or his desire to own the club. When that day comes, Chelsea will return to where they were before him or be even worse off. Arsenal has remained responsible and should be fine long into the future.

Again... I'm going to throw my opinion out there. I see these billionaires throwing money into football clubs as a fad. It's the "cool" thing for rich people to do today, but it won't last. You have to ask yourself "what are they getting out of running a football club?" In the end... they get nothing out of it really. One day they'll realize that it's a waste of time/money to be involved in football the way they are now and move on. These people aren't stupid. They're not going to keep pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into football w/o any financial return. It may not happen for a long time, but they'll all leave. What sane person would dump all of their money into football?

They could all be insane... I don't know. I kinda doubt it though since they all managed to make so much money.

I just hope they all don't do permanent damage to football before they leave.
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Yorkyblue » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:23 pm

I don't see Chelsea having any problems if Romen leaves. I think their income covers the wage structure. It will be different for City though, I hope there is something in place in the takeover deal if he ever decides he got bored.

I can just imagine us signing Gerrard on a 5 year deal paying him 500k a week, he fucks off after 2 years and we'll be bankrupt by Christmas :lol:
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Leody » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:27 pm

Yorkyblue wrote:I don't see Chelsea having any problems if Romen leaves. I think their income covers the wage structure. It will be different for City though, I hope there is something in place in the takeover deal if he ever decides he got bored.

I can just imagine us signing Gerrard on a 5 year deal paying him 500k a week, he fucks off after 2 years and we'll be bankrupt by Christmas :lol:


I kinda doubt this new group is crazy enough to pay anybody 500k a week. :lol:

Never know though...
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Yorkyblue » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:32 pm

Leody wrote:
Yorkyblue wrote:I don't see Chelsea having any problems if Romen leaves. I think their income covers the wage structure. It will be different for City though, I hope there is something in place in the takeover deal if he ever decides he got bored.

I can just imagine us signing Gerrard on a 5 year deal paying him 500k a week, he fucks off after 2 years and we'll be bankrupt by Christmas :lol:


I kinda doubt this new group is crazy enough to pay anybody 500k a week. :lol:

Never know though...

I know it's just Newspapers but that's what they're saying over here that he is saying he will pay that for Gerrard and Essien.
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Leody » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:35 pm

Yorkyblue wrote:
Leody wrote:
Yorkyblue wrote:I don't see Chelsea having any problems if Romen leaves. I think their income covers the wage structure. It will be different for City though, I hope there is something in place in the takeover deal if he ever decides he got bored.

I can just imagine us signing Gerrard on a 5 year deal paying him 500k a week, he fucks off after 2 years and we'll be bankrupt by Christmas :lol:


I kinda doubt this new group is crazy enough to pay anybody 500k a week. :lol:

Never know though...

I know it's just Newspapers but that's what they're saying over here that he is saying he will pay that for Gerrard and Essien.


I need some of what that guy's smoking...

Seriously...

What paper is that in? Surely that can't be real. This guy is on some SERIOUSLY wacky shit.
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Re: Salary Cap/Wage Cap

Postby Yorkyblue » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:40 pm

Leody wrote:
Yorkyblue wrote:
Leody wrote:
Yorkyblue wrote:I don't see Chelsea having any problems if Romen leaves. I think their income covers the wage structure. It will be different for City though, I hope there is something in place in the takeover deal if he ever decides he got bored.

I can just imagine us signing Gerrard on a 5 year deal paying him 500k a week, he fucks off after 2 years and we'll be bankrupt by Christmas :lol:


I kinda doubt this new group is crazy enough to pay anybody 500k a week. :lol:

Never know though...

I know it's just Newspapers but that's what they're saying over here that he is saying he will pay that for Gerrard and Essien.


I need some of what that guy's smoking...

Seriously...

What paper is that in? Surely that can't be real. This guy is on some SERIOUSLY wacky shit.


He's seriously that rich to not notice it.

If he leaves us in the shit though, it's an example of where salary caps can save clubs from ending up in these situations instead of using it to try even things out.

I'm off to the pub, I'll continue this later. :D
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