Immigration, your view?

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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby Sims » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:05 pm

nothing like quotes with no context by facebook notes of a fox news reporter
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby GoonerAlexandre » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:29 pm

Marsbar100 wrote:https://m.facebook.com/notes/jan-morgan/islamverses-from-the-quran-evidence-that-islam-is-clearly-and-concisely-evil-vio/10150288799819261/

Look at some of the quotes, it incites violence against non-Muslims, hence there is terror attacks, sexual exploitation of young white women in this country.

Let's blame the parents father's though ffs

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a *** will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a *** hiding behind me, so kill him."

Says that Muslims will be fighting Jews when the Hour (Last days of the world) will happen. Again, doesn't call Muslims to actually attack Jews, it's a prophecy. Look at the Biblical Rapture if this offends you

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

Not even close. It's about a war the Muslims are struggling to win, and the Muslims win it with a night time assault. Those women and children are already on the battle field.

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

This Hadith in full is:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Terror in heart is in reference to the war of the Trench, I believe, where Muslims were surrounded by over 10000 enemies, but survived because of storms, etc. Either that or Badr, not sure. Terror as in terrorism, nope.

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Jihad is also fighting against the inner desires of a person. That is lying, sex, etc, etc.....

Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious
Striving in the path of Allah is Jihad. That is improving yourself, not giving in to the desires of the flesh. Which pretty nullifies the point in the Hadith just before this about being about fighting

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah


Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

Jesus came with a sword. Standard stuff tbh. Btw, both of these reference the same incident. This is a sign of this Hadith being likely genuine.

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

Again, Jihad doesn't just mean fighting

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

Yes, finally, some place where Jihad means fighting. Again, standard stuff which every army teaches as well. No higher cause than dying for your nation against the enemy. Islam at the start was a nation along with being a religion

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"

Same as above, standard army stuff. People should want to die for their nation, even if the opportunity doesn't come for them

Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."
This isn't even a Hadith number, and not even a Hadith is given

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any *** who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

Tabari and Ibn Ishaq are not accepted in the six holy Hadith books. Here's the truth about Ibn Ishaq's work
http://islamiat101.blogspot.com/2012/10 ... ishaq.html

Not even close to legitimate.

Will do the Quran verses when I have time.

I actually find it funny she chose these when she could have gone on about gays, and women. But then again...... Islam's views on those are pretty much Fox's views on those.
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby GoonerAlexandre » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:50 pm

Quran part:

Actually, she's done the first one for me. It's about a war. When the Holy Months for the Arabs started, the war stopped. Notice how Muslims are supposed to stop war even for the holy months of the Arabs, even though we only have one Holy Month (Ramadan).


Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Again, first one is fighting to defend your religion. Ffs, not all war is evil. As for the second, bullshit on the caravan one, the caravan was carrying goods of the Muslims which were killed in Makkah, or ran away from Makkah. I'd say most countries would do the same.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Er...... bible anyone? I don't think us unbelievers are going to enjoy that part either

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Omg, even for Fox News this is reaching. Yes, Muhammad (PBUH) in 700 AD made a verse about terrorism in 2000's. Btw, if you believe this, you better believe he's actually a Prophet for doing this

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

How is this a theological case for suicide bombers as she says? Ffs...... it's about war. It's standard army stuff. How many of you have served in the military? This is the same sort of slogans they say

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Same army stuff

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Non-Muslims believe you should reject Islam. Don't be friendly with those who want you to change religion. If they attack you, seize and slay them.

It doesn't mean what she wants it to mean.

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

Army thing. Those who stay at home are not equal to those who fight for your rights.

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Btw, this women is acting as if armies let those who retreat to run away. Again, is she this foolish or is she doing it on purpose? Leave it to you to decide, but most armies don't let those who retreat actually do so.

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Those who attack you should be killed. Those who are traitors should be killed. Remind me what the punishment of the traitor in most of the world is?

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
War. Those who fight you will be scared. Seriously, I could have pulled up more questionable verses than this woman

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Don't retreat in war. Again, the war theme

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

It was not simply not letting him enter Makkah. The Makkans had attacked the Muslims 3 times by that point, not to mention actually turning them away from their home city for the simple crime of not believing

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

War. Have you seen one of the war posters in the army, "Aim, Shoot, and keep on shooting."?

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Keep your armed forces well armed.
Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."
Again, war

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

In time of war, fight them, Allah will help you

Same as God is with you soldier

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.

Those who fight in a war to defend your country (Religion here) are greater than those who do not.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Muslim state has a tax, and laws. If the non-Muslims in that state accept it, fine, if they don't, then they should do so.

Basically, don't pay tax, don't obey laws.....

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Notice, "Allah destroy them". Not MUSLIMS

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
Muslims didn't want to go fight against an army preparing to attack them because the plants were ready for harvesting, and the armies weren't yet gathered so why bother. Basically, a preliminary attack

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them"
On the same topic actually. The Romans were preparing to attack the Arabian Kingdom. Does someone seriously think the Roman empire of the time would not have done so? :D :D

The next 5 verses are all on the same war

Quran (18:65-81)
Incidents:
Moses and a man called Khizr cross a river for free. This man Khizr knows of the future so punctures their boat so that the King of the area who's seizing all healthy boats doesn't do so to these people
Second, he kills an innocent boy. Moses protests. Khizr says he did so because he knew the boy would be evil
Thirdly, about some orphan's wealth

Where in the world is the honour killing here? Basically, even if you accept it, the question is about whether you should morally act on future knowledge than anything. Since none of us are likely to know the future.... no relevance to anyone's life really

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Army thing again

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..."
This is a Makkan verse. It's not about the army, since the Muslims didn't even have one. Strive, as in still believe and pray despite them stopping you

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

During war, spreading rumours that XYZ bad thing is going to happen. Pretty much being a traitor. Punishment for a traitor is ___________

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similtudes. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Again, verse during war. Next four are on the same topic (Quran Surah(The first number) are grouped by topic)

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

Quran (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

She herself says it's about war.
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby GoonerAlexandre » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:52 pm

Btw, like I said, I'm more agnostic, but she could have gone on about gay and woman rights, but again, that would chime in with her views very well so she doesn't do so. These verses don't mean at all what she wants them to

You can blame Islam for a few things related to human rights imo, but about terrorism promotion. Not really
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby Marsbar100 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:05 pm

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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby GoonerAlexandre » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:13 pm

Not gonna watch a 10 minute video but there are over a billion Muslims, you'd have world war 3 + terrorist attacks every second if those verses meant close to what these people want you to think
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby GoonerAlexandre » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:39 pm

Also, Ozil and Mustafi, and Elneny are also immigrant Muslims

The only terror anyone of them has caused is probably Mustafi in our defence
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby Alexis » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:27 am

DiamondGooner wrote:
Marsbar100 wrote:If your name is Jesus you will be Christian, Muhammad is a central name to Islam ffs.

They might be Pakistani but they are reading their scriptures and doing this grooming because the books says it is acceptable, if the book never mentioned this stuff it wouldn't happen so being Pakistani and Muslim isn't a separate issue regardless if Turks aren't doing the same thing.


Marsbar100 your ignorance is verging on annoying but I'm going to be patient.

My father is Arabic, my mother English and I have what you would call a "very muslim name" however I could probably drink you under the table and spend my weekends out on the town acting more "western" than you probably do, I'm about as muslim as the Pope.

Just because you have a religious name doesn't mean you are religious, maybe your parents were but doesn't mean you are so your point is debunked pure and simple, I am proof of it.

Also I doubt there is one verse in the Quran that promotes Paedophilia, if there is post it.

Britain First miscreants come up with these sorts of arguments because they brainstorm in the local pub and think they have knowledge.
This whole thing about Muhammed being a paedo because he was married to a 9 yr old.

Let me tell you something, English and European Kings and Queens were regularly made to have arranged marriages with minors, they didn't sleep with them, they hardly even saw them, they were just promised to be betrothed when they came of age.

Were they paedo's as well? don't let historical customs of arranged marriages of which you have no clue get in the way of this debate please, either know what your talking about or don't raise it at all.


Just to add my 2 cents to this, I have a friend with the surname muhamed but an English first name. He is Christian and goes to church every sunday and even does a lot of those church activities with the local community which many other white Christians fail to do.

Now his background is a bit uncommon, a former muslim father converting to Christianity and marrying into a Christian family but he's never changed his surname so his whole family's name ends in muhamed.

So Marsbar, like DG says, do not assume just from their name as that show complete ignorance and naivety on your part. I'm sure there are other cases like him all around the world and its also due to people like you that make him quite self-conscious of how others perceive him and judge him before they get to know him as an individual.

In fact a good example of this is when we went to Vegas on holiday last year, he was pulled to the side at security and got thoroughly checked whilst no other passengers around did and there were quite a few dodgy looking fellas around too
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby EliteKiller » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:47 am

Funny how as always a debate titled 'views on immigration' ends up as yet another religious diatribe ....

Religion doesn't matter ... you can pray to whatever imaginary being you want they're all pretty much the same .... what matters with immigration ..... and that's immigration to any country ..... is that the would be immigrant needs to accept the customs and practices of the country they wish to enter .... if they can't, or won't do that, then then should be refused entry, it's that simple ....

For some countries those customs and practices may will include religion ... so if you don't like that then don't go there ... it's not as if there aren't enough muslim/christian/catholic countries to pick from .....

No country or it's citizens should have to change their established way of life to accommodate immigrants .... welcome, encourage, advise and accept ... but it's the immigrants who must embrace the local culture not the other way around ...

That's not 'intolerant' it's just basic common sense .... my house my rules ....

We are all different ... the sooner the PC W****rs stop trying to homogenise us ... the better the world will be .....
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby DiamondGooner » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:09 pm

EliteKiller wrote:Funny how as always a debate titled 'views on immigration' ends up as yet another religious diatribe ....

Religion doesn't matter ... you can pray to whatever imaginary being you want they're all pretty much the same .... what matters with immigration ..... and that's immigration to any country ..... is that the would be immigrant needs to accept the customs and practices of the country they wish to enter .... if they can't, or won't do that, then then should be refused entry, it's that simple ....

For some countries those customs and practices may will include religion ... so if you don't like that then don't go there ... it's not as if there aren't enough muslim/christian/catholic countries to pick from .....

No country or it's citizens should have to change their established way of life to accommodate immigrants .... welcome, encourage, advise and accept ... but it's the immigrants who must embrace the local culture not the other way around ...

That's not 'intolerant' it's just basic common sense .... my house my rules ....

We are all different ... the sooner the PC W****rs stop trying to homogenise us ... the better the world will be .....


Sorry but there is a paradox here.

On the one the one hand I agree that if you go to a country you should respect the laws and customs of the land your staying in .......... however, in western society we are free to have whatever religion, attitude etc we want to have, so once people are here they are indeed free under the same rules we enjoy.

You may not like it but that's the law.

If you go to live in Saudi Arabia do you feel that you should be forced to dress like them, not drink alcohol, not live your life, not speak English?

Also what if a black man born in England wants to adhere and adopt his caribbean roots, wear his hair in dreadlocks and dress in green, black and red, listen to Reggae .......... is he not allowed to do so? does he "have to" attend the local pub and talk in a cockney accent?

I know why your annoyed but that doesn't mean your right and it doesn't mean you can cattle people of this globe into your very little box ..... and you never will.
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby 22-0 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:36 pm

Ozil has a dog therefor hes an infidel according to more extreme muslims no?
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby GoonerAlexandre » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:40 pm

22-0 wrote:Ozil has a dog therefor hes an infidel according to more extreme muslims no?

You're allowed to have a dog for hunting and security......
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby GoonerAlexandre » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:40 pm

Btw lol @ infidel for having dog. Lying is a sin, and everyone lies, so everyone's an infidel....
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby 22-0 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:03 pm

GoonerAlexis wrote:
22-0 wrote:Ozil has a dog therefor hes an infidel according to more extreme muslims no?

You're allowed to have a dog for hunting and security......


thats not why he has a dog.
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Re: Immigration, your view?

Postby 22-0 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:05 pm

GoonerAlexis wrote:Btw lol @ infidel for having dog. Lying is a sin, and everyone lies, so everyone's an infidel....


Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.
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