British Politics

[Power n Glory]

@EliteKiller, @Luzh22, @dc16

If you're ok seeing us exit without a deal, what's the problem? As it stands, that's what's going to happen and all the theatrics are just for show. The EU won't grant an extension unless MP's back May's deal, the speaker won't allow another vote on May's deal unless there is a significant change, which hasn't happened.

Would you prefer a deal or no deal?

The options aren't deal or no deal are they. The options are May's deal (worse than our current standing), cancel Article 50 and f**k democracy, or no deal.


So, my answer is, no deal at this point.

May won't have the courage to cancel Article 50. It's speculation and it's what some people are calling for but as it stands that's not an option on the table.

If it was obvious from the start that there was no way to appease all parties and get a satisfactory deal, then this has to be the most obvious outcome. It's just a case of whether we'll actually go through with a no deal brexit.

As for democracy, the last vote should stand with the public. Those that originally voted may have changed their mind or they voted to leave after being told they'd get a favorable deal from the EU (whatever that means). The fact that it's the MPs deciding this is what I find undemocratic.

You can't just have votes willy-nilly. If you did, nothing would ever be achieved. The people wanted out. The choices were leave or remain. There were no caveats on the ballot paper. Leave or remain. The choices couldn't have been simpler.


The people voted leave.

A simple question and simple choices for something that's not that simple. That should be obvious by now. It should have never gone to the public vote this way. Not when there are so many caveats and possible scenarios. It's like asking for a divorce when your married with kids and thinking once that's agreed the rest is easy and you can just walk away. It's not that simple. Who gets the house? How will custody be shared with the kids? Who's paying what? You wouldn't leave that to the lawyers to decide and just be happy when you have the divorce and can walk would you?

[Power n Glory]

@EliteKiller, @Luzh22, @dc16

If you're ok seeing us exit without a deal, what's the problem? As it stands, that's what's going to happen and all the theatrics are just for show. The EU won't grant an extension unless MP's back May's deal, the speaker won't allow another vote on May's deal unless there is a significant change, which hasn't happened.

Would you prefer a deal or no deal?

I actually voted to remain but I think we will and should now leave with no deal. A bit of a contradiction.

I’m annoyed by the whole thing and even if another referendum was called I’d vote leave just to f**k them.

It will be brutal and difficult if we leave (or so we are told) and I’ll be sad about it. I actually think there will be forces working against us to make us fail and “feel the pain” for a bit before things will eventually get better.

Add to that the tone of some comments on social media and more left leaning media, The Guardian etc, from remainers it hardly fills you with confidence that they will get behind or be capable of helping to drag the country back to any fit state. I get the feeling they would be more likely to mug you outside the local Waitrose for your bog roll (that’s the latest thing. Apparently all our bog roll is manufactured in the EU) when times get desperate.

Get your tinned fruit and toilet roll ready. Brexit is coming.

You'll end up f***ing yourself and those close to you. Whether it's short term or long term pain, the politicians won't feel a pinch.

[dc16]

@EliteKiller, @Luzh22, @dc16

If you're ok seeing us exit without a deal, what's the problem? As it stands, that's what's going to happen and all the theatrics are just for show. The EU won't grant an extension unless MP's back May's deal, the speaker won't allow another vote on May's deal unless there is a significant change, which hasn't happened.

Would you prefer a deal or no deal?

I actually voted to remain but I think we will and should now leave with no deal. A bit of a contradiction.

I’m annoyed by the whole thing and even if another referendum was called I’d vote leave just to f**k them.

It will be brutal and difficult if we leave (or so we are told) and I’ll be sad about it. I actually think there will be forces working against us to make us fail and “feel the pain” for a bit before things will eventually get better.

Add to that the tone of some comments on social media and more left leaning media, The Guardian etc, from remainers it hardly fills you with confidence that they will get behind or be capable of helping to drag the country back to any fit state. I get the feeling they would be more likely to mug you outside the local Waitrose for your bog roll (that’s the latest thing. Apparently all our bog roll is manufactured in the EU) when times get desperate.

Get your tinned fruit and toilet roll ready. Brexit is coming.

You'll end up f***ing yourself and those close to you. Whether it's short term or long term pain, the politicians won't feel a pinch.

It’s more of an empty threat than anything and a symptom of how apathetic I’ve become about the whole thing.

I don’t think I’m the only one.

[Luzh 22]

@EliteKiller, @Luzh22, @dc16

If you're ok seeing us exit without a deal, what's the problem? As it stands, that's what's going to happen and all the theatrics are just for show. The EU won't grant an extension unless MP's back May's deal, the speaker won't allow another vote on May's deal unless there is a significant change, which hasn't happened.

Would you prefer a deal or no deal?

The options aren't deal or no deal are they. The options are May's deal (worse than our current standing), cancel Article 50 and f**k democracy, or no deal.


So, my answer is, no deal at this point.

May won't have the courage to cancel Article 50. It's speculation and it's what some people are calling for but as it stands that's not an option on the table.

If it was obvious from the start that there was no way to appease all parties and get a satisfactory deal, then this has to be the most obvious outcome. It's just a case of whether we'll actually go through with a no deal brexit.

As for democracy, the last vote should stand with the public. Those that originally voted may have changed their mind or they voted to leave after being told they'd get a favorable deal from the EU (whatever that means). The fact that it's the MPs deciding this is what I find undemocratic.

You can't just have votes willy-nilly. If you did, nothing would ever be achieved. The people wanted out. The choices were leave or remain. There were no caveats on the ballot paper. Leave or remain. The choices couldn't have been simpler.


The people voted leave.

A simple question and simple choices for something that's not that simple. That should be obvious by now. It should have never gone to the public vote this way. Not when there are so many caveats and possible scenarios. It's like asking for a divorce when your married with kids and thinking once that's agreed the rest is easy and you can just walk away. It's not that simple. Who gets the house? How will custody be shared with the kids? Who's paying what? You wouldn't leave that to the lawyers to decide and just be happy when you have the divorce and can walk would you?

This isn't a marital divorce. I didn't call for a referendum. I didn't force the house of commons to enact article 50.

I do, however, respect democracy. I also recognize the dangers of not respecting democracy, and the can of worms it will open.


If the original vote is not respected, where does it end with any future vote? A: It doesn't and can't ever stop, as precedent would have been set. It would undermine British democracy and politics forever more. Something which is far more concerning than some short to medium term pain suffered in the event of a non favorable exit from the E.U.

[Power n Glory]

It's similar to a divorce and I use it as an example to show that it's not a simple process and there are other things to decide once you've agreed to part ways.

If you respect democracy then what's the big deal about allowing the people to vote for outcome again? Even if people are allowed to vote for a No Deal or the Deal currently on the table. Why wouldn't anything get done?

[UFGN]

How well respected do you think a remain win would have been by hard-line brexiteers?

Would UKIP have disbanded and stopped sending MEPs to the EU parliament to disrupt it at every opportunity?

[Luzh 22]

How well respected do you think a remain win would have been by hard-line brexiteers?

Would UKIP have disbanded and stopped sending MEPs to the EU parliament to disrupt it at every opportunity?

About as well respected as the current situation, just reversed. People seriously have to get to grips with the fundamentals of democracy and the pitfalls of not respecting those fundamentals. History is littered with tragic examples.

[Reverend Gooner]

Farage said before the referendum, quoting pretty much the exact result leave won by, that if remain won by that there will be unfinished business and it won't be over. That shows you for sure they would not have accepted it. I 100% feel the precedent of parliament revoking article 50 on their own is a serious precedent which will need to be fully justified but if they put it back to the people and we changed our minds I would consider that acceptable, especially if it is vs no deal.

Most of my family live on the south coast and they are heavy leavers, when I asked them about the consequences of no deal and whether that was what they wanted when they voted for it they said 'no' (apart from one). It was a vague, advisory question and the mantra that 'everyone voted leave for the same reason' is rubbish. No deal is a monumental path to take, if it really is looking like that it would be right to ask again.

So parliament is not sitting on Friday and the vote will be at the end of Thursday so if it fails there is no time to sort anything else out. A pure manipulation to guarantee no deal just like yesterday was pure manipulation to try and pin the blame on the MPs when it happens.

Something is going to have to happen before the vote next week and some MPs are going to have to find the courage to do it. Someone else needs to be in charge.

Your missing the bigger picture.

It'll never be No Deal .......... what they're doing is using the specter of a looming No Deal to force May's deal through, the fact that the EU are backing her goes to show the loop holes Parliament are so worried about are grounded in reality.

The EU want us to take the deal and bend us over when we're locked in.

But nobody in power wants No Deal, 3/4 of Parliament, Theresa May, the EU don't want it ........... so it won't happen.

The EU and Britain are not prepared for it and once we're out we're out so the EU will final hour concede an extension and they go again.

Trust me ........... I've called it for 12 months running now, its getting easy to see their hands.

What do you predict will happen?

The EU softened their stance today, apparently the Irish PM managed to tame Macron who was looking to throw us out asap. They don't want a no deal and the wording of this offer clearly shows they are open to other options in the future but May is hellbent on this deal or no deal. At what point doe she either resign or get removed?

The Tories cannot contest a leadership until December and none of their MPs would support a no confidence vote and risk a labour government. However after what she did last night and losing the support of her chief whip which (apparently) is a death sentence in politics it is hard to see how she is fit to lead.

[UFGN]

Macron wants to see our financial services sector burn so Paris can profit from the fire sale

[Luzh 22]

It's similar to a divorce and I use it as an example to show that it's not a simple process and there are other things to decide once you've agreed to part ways.

If you respect democracy then what's the big deal about allowing the people to vote for outcome again? Even if people are allowed to vote for a No Deal or the Deal currently on the table. Why wouldn't anything get done?

When David Cameron announced the referendum, it was made abundently clear what the vote was for, what leave meant, that there was no going back and there would not be another referendum. 17 million people chose leave, knowing full well what it meant. People didn't vote for a deal. A deal was never part of the ballot paper.


The question was leave or remain. It was simple on purpose. The people chose leave and trusted in their MP's to deliver the best possible outcome.


Did the people know that the leave process would be dogged every step of it's implementation, by self sabotage by the very same people they had put their trust in to deliver the best possible outcome of a leave vote? No, they didn't.


So, should those people who voted leave, now have to vote again, all because the MP's representing them tried their damndest to hinder proper democratic procedure, by sabotaging the process at every step of the way? No, they shouldn't have to, the sentiment that leaving the E.U is right for the country is still the same. The only thing that will have changed will be the peoples will to implement that sentiment, due to the actions of those who supposedly represent them. People are sick and tired of the whole thing, and that's exactly what the MP's have aimed to do.

[Reverend Gooner]

There is no doubt it would be a shame if it does come to pass but if leave is still the will of the people then leave will win again.

We live in a world where consequences are more important than the intention. I don't buy into the idea that all Brexiteers are racist morons, while reasons vary for voting leave, the main motivation from what I have seen was more opportunities and future prosperity for their families and communities. However look at what all the experts are saying about a no deal (who can't surely all be pro EU shills), professionals are begging to stop no deal because a great deal of project fear is based on reality. The consequences of no deal will most probably have the complete opposite effect on those communities than what the leave voters intended. It is right that both the leavers and remainers are able to protect against that if they so wish by a confirmation vote. I think that is valid enough for the precedent of another referendum. I know there are those, like Luzh, who disagree.

This is all on May if you ask me, not the MPs but I have had enough of discussing her this week, once she is gone I hope I never see her face anywhere again.

[Power n Glory]

Farage said before the referendum, quoting pretty much the exact result leave won by, that if remain won by that there will be unfinished business and it won't be over. That shows you for sure they would not have accepted it. I 100% feel the precedent of parliament revoking article 50 on their own is a serious precedent which will need to be fully justified but if they put it back to the people and we changed our minds I would consider that acceptable, especially if it is vs no deal.

Most of my family live on the south coast and they are heavy leavers, when I asked them about the consequences of no deal and whether that was what they wanted when they voted for it they said 'no' (apart from one). It was a vague, advisory question and the mantra that 'everyone voted leave for the same reason' is rubbish. No deal is a monumental path to take, if it really is looking like that it would be right to ask again.

So parliament is not sitting on Friday and the vote will be at the end of Thursday so if it fails there is no time to sort anything else out. A pure manipulation to guarantee no deal just like yesterday was pure manipulation to try and pin the blame on the MPs when it happens.

Something is going to have to happen before the vote next week and some MPs are going to have to find the courage to do it. Someone else needs to be in charge.

Your missing the bigger picture.

It'll never be No Deal .......... what they're doing is using the specter of a looming No Deal to force May's deal through, the fact that the EU are backing her goes to show the loop holes Parliament are so worried about are grounded in reality.

The EU want us to take the deal and bend us over when we're locked in.

But nobody in power wants No Deal, 3/4 of Parliament, Theresa May, the EU don't want it ........... so it won't happen.

The EU and Britain are not prepared for it and once we're out we're out so the EU will final hour concede an extension and they go again.

Trust me ........... I've called it for 12 months running now, its getting easy to see their hands.

What do you predict will happen?

The EU softened their stance today, apparently the Irish PM managed to tame Macron who was looking to throw us out asap. They don't want a no deal and the wording of this offer clearly shows they are open to other options in the future but May is hellbent on this deal or no deal. At what point doe she either resign or get removed?

The Tories cannot contest a leadership until December and none of their MPs would support a no confidence vote and risk a labour government. However after what she did last night and losing the support of her chief whip which (apparently) is a death sentence in politics it is hard to see how she is fit to lead.

This answers your post @Luzh 22.

[Luzh 22]

I'll just be clear, I am not arguing for leave or remain here, I am arguing for liberal democratic procedure to come above everything else.

The way I see it, democratic procedure and the correct implementation of that procedure trumps everything else in politics. It's is the foundation upon which the great nations of the Earth are built, and it's the only proven way people can determine their own futures, in whatever way they decide, without stamping on the rights and choices of others. Its sanctity should always take precedence in debating any political fallout.

If that procedure is subverted either overtly or covertly, history teaches us far worse things are around the corner, than some short to medium term financial instability (in this case a no deal Brexit). Both Communism and Fascism thrive in political climates where democracy has been tarnished. Extremism is always the result of taking away peoples self determination.


Like I have said before, if you overturn the democratic process, even one determined by borderline misinformation and lies, you are setting a precedent for forever more. If you do it, it can never be undone.


For the sanctity of the democratic process, and this reason alone, Brexit should be seen through. And after it is done, there should be wide ranging consequences and reforms, ensuring such a calamity can never happen again.

[Power n Glory]

@Luhz 22 I understand the argument but make no mistake, this is the second time the UK has had a vote on EU membership. We initially joined the EU without a public vote back in the 70s and a referendum was held in 1975 for people to have their say. We obviously voted to stay in the EU and that vote has been overturned.

Also, what if it's another vote to decide on how we leave, not if we leave? So a people's vote on May's deal or No Deal?

[Phil71]

The leave camp consistently said it would be no problem at all to negotiate a good deal with the EU, and that is what leave voters voted for.

The will of the people is not to leave the EU in absolute chaos, with the government secretly drafting plans to retreat to an underground bunker and put the army onto the streets.

That is not what I voted for. If Parliament shows again next week that they are unable to approve the deal, it needs to go back to the people.