British Politics

[UFGN]

Everyone said that Brexit would be bloody hard to work out except headline brexiteers

I said Northern Ireland would be a big problem. I was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

Turns out Brexit has been very hard to work out, largely because of Northern Ireland. That's just a fact. There's no point blaming the government.

That's bollocks because obviously it was going to be hard but then if it was an impossible situation (which its not by the way most countries are not in the EU) and the Gov't couldn't fulfil it then they shouldn't of offered the referendum simple as that!

The Gov't shouldn't be writing cheques they can't cash but they did so its on them to deliver, its not the voters fault who only did what they were asked to do and voted.

You know when you just repeat yourself over and over and spout the same old "most countries are not in the EU" moronic crap it's very hard to not just ignore you as a complete idiot

You make it impossible. Maybe that's what you want. It's too difficult so just repeat yourself over and over until everyone gives up

[UFGN]

DG please go and read up on Northern Ireland, the Troubles, and specifically the Good Friday agreement,

Then you might understand what's at stake and the detail of why the border matters so much

[DiamondGooner]

Everyone said that Brexit would be bloody hard to work out except headline brexiteers

I said Northern Ireland would be a big problem. I was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

Turns out Brexit has been very hard to work out, largely because of Northern Ireland. That's just a fact. There's no point blaming the government.

That's bollocks because obviously it was going to be hard but then if it was an impossible situation (which its not by the way most countries are not in the EU) and the Gov't couldn't fulfil it then they shouldn't of offered the referendum simple as that!

The Gov't shouldn't be writing cheques they can't cash but they did so its on them to deliver, its not the voters fault who only did what they were asked to do and voted.

You know when you just repeat yourself over and over and spout the same old "most countries are not in the EU" moronic crap it's very hard to not just ignore you as a complete idiot

You make it impossible. Maybe that's what you want. It's too difficult so just repeat yourself over and over until everyone gives up

But they aren't so who's the idiot?

Before you spout all of that "But the Britain does most of its trading with Europe" so what? isn't that the point of preparing for the last two years by looking at making other trade deals as well as the ones with Europe you know damn well are going to continue?

We buy from them, remember that, the majority is very one way, we buy more from them than they do from us goods wise.

So how does me pointing out that that other countries are not in the EU make me an idiot?

DG please go and read up on Northern Ireland, the Troubles, and specifically the Good Friday agreement,

Then you might understand what's at stake and the detail of why the border matters so much

I know what the bloody Good Friday agreement is you doughnut, but just because Ireland wants to stay in the EU why should we let them decide policy for our whole country because they're threatening a possible return to violence just because of a check point / border??

If they're willing to die for that then so be it, how stupid is that, its political posturing imo, they're not going to start the Ireland independence war over a fkin border, there's no appetite for that among the Irish population now, those days are done.

[UFGN]

It's the detail that matters

Seamless interaction with Ireland is integral to the Good Friday Agreement

Why should we? Because we bloody agreed to it! It's a bloody agreement! Your cavalier attitude to people getting killed and peace braking down is f***ing pathetic

The GFA was one of the most important achievements in our country in the last 100 years. But as usual, one track mind.... Brexit, nothing else matters

[EliteKiller]

Not sure you understand the government position UFGN

The UK government committed on 8 December 2017 to “the avoidance of a hard border, including any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls”. Moreover, it also agreed to a backstop agreement, which means that in the absence of any other agreement “the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support north-south cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 agreement”.

This position hasn't changed, however the EU won't allow this under a Brexit deal ... so something has to give ... either we reach an agreement with RoI / EU / UK or the UK leaves with no deal ... it would then be RoI as a member of the EU who would need to impose 'hard borders' not the UK government ... this is obviously 100% not what the RoI wants ... hence the impasse ...

The EU says include Northern Ireland in the customs Union so the border then becomes the Irish Sea ... but the Nationalists see that as a step towards a United Ireland ...

The UK Government is happy with a soft border but that means customs controls and the Unionists won't agree to that ....

Whist no border / soft border / hard border options all might give the Unionists and Nationalists an excuse for violence, is that really likely? and if it is what's the solution? Can 5m Irish decide the fate of 67m UK citizens?

[UFGN]

Not sure you understand the government position UFGN

The UK government committed on 8 December 2017 to “the avoidance of a hard border, including any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls”. Moreover, it also agreed to a backstop agreement, which means that in the absence of any other agreement “the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support north-south cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 agreement”.

This position hasn't changed, however the EU won't allow this under a Brexit deal ... so something has to give ... either we reach an agreement with RoI / EU / UK or the UK leaves with no deal ... it would then be RoI as a member of the EU who would need to impose 'hard borders' not the UK government ... this is obviously 100% not what the RoI wants ... hence the impasse ...

The EU says include Northern Ireland in the customs Union so the border then becomes the Irish Sea ... but the Nationalists see that as a step towards a United Ireland ...

The UK Government is happy with a soft border but that means customs controls and the Unionists won't agree to that ....

Whist no border / soft border / hard border options all might give the Unionists and Nationalists an excuse for violence, is that really likely? and if it is what's the solution? Can 5m Irish decide the fate of 67m UK citizens?

You've basically said there what we already know

Ie it's a f***ing mess. And yes I know all the causes and permutations. I've read extensively about the Troubles and the GFA and recently read Tony Blair's autobiography

Blair's take on it all is very sobering. When you read how difficult the GFA was to achieve, how dangerous the actors involved are and how fragile the peace is, you then realise what's at stake

You talk about the Irish deciding brexit... total nonsense. It's Northern Ireland that's the issue and that is our problem and theirs.

So far views I've heard from brexiteers since this farce started have included: f**k Northern Ireland, give it back to the Irish, f**k Scotland, if they have another referendum because of Brexit and leave, so what?..... and now f**k the Good Friday Agreement....its too difficult and complicated

And they call themselves patriots

[EliteKiller]

You talk about the Irish deciding Brexit... total nonsense. It's Northern Ireland that's the issue and that is our problem and theirs.

I talked about two things ... the border which has three options - open as now - soft border meaning customs checks but no infrastructure - hard border meaning infrastructure ....

The UK and the RoI are bound post Brexit by the GFA ... so that in principle rules out a Hard Border ...

However the RoI as part of the EU will, post Brexit, require a Hard Border with any non EU country, so a hard border with the UK ...

Under a no deal it will be the RoI who will be forced to implement the EU Hard Border as why would the UK need it? ... it's the EU who will be wanting to tax goods from the UK ... the RoI are adamantly opposed to this, hence their claim it would lead to civil unrest ...

So no it's not "Northern Ireland that's the problem" it's the RoI being bound by EU rules when post Brexit the UK no longer is ... Northern Ireland just happens to be where the border lies ... at the moment ...

and secondly what happens to the GFA post Brexit ...

Well as for Tony Blair ... mate he's a feckin' war criminal and an utter c*** ... nothing he writes is any better than toilet paper ...

Try - Beyond the Border: The Good Friday Agreement and Irish Unity After Brexit - by Richard Humphreys ... start with Chapter 3 it gives a very detailed account of the legal implications of Brexit and the GFA ... it also suggests how to negotiate that minefield .... the bloody politicians should all be made to read it ....

It would be a Northern Ireland issue if the UK was prepared to cut Northern Ireland adrift for trade purposes, with the UK trade border starting in Wales ... that would give Northern Ireland the best of both world's - part of the UK and yet inside the EU trading zone - however politically this is understandably a near impossible sell to the people of Northern Ireland ...

So we're left with doing what works best for the 67 million in the UK ... or as I said doing what works best for the 5 million in Ireland ... because right now it's clear that these two options are a very long way apart ....

If Scotland or Northern Ireland vote to leave the UK then fair play to them ... so far they haven't ... so your point is mute ...

[UFGN]

You talk about the Irish deciding Brexit... total nonsense. It's Northern Ireland that's the issue and that is our problem and theirs.

I talked about two things ... the border which has three options - open as now - soft border meaning customs checks but no infrastructure - hard border meaning infrastructure ....

The UK and the RoI are bound post Brexit by the GFA ... so that in principle rules out a Hard Border ...

However the RoI as part of the EU will, post Brexit, require a Hard Border with any non EU country, so a hard border with the UK ...

Under a no deal it will be the RoI who will be forced to implement the EU Hard Border as why would the UK need it? ... it's the EU who will be wanting to tax goods from the UK ... the RoI are adamantly opposed to this, hence their claim it would lead to civil unrest ...

So no it's not "Northern Ireland that's the problem" it's the RoI being bound by EU rules when post Brexit the UK no longer is ... Northern Ireland just happens to be where the border lies ... at the moment ...

and secondly what happens to the GFA post Brexit ...

Well as for Tony Blair ... mate he's a feckin' war criminal and an utter c*** ... nothing he writes is any better than toilet paper ...

Try - Beyond the Border: The Good Friday Agreement and Irish Unity After Brexit - by Richard Humphreys ... start with Chapter 3 it gives a very detailed account of the legal implications of Brexit and the GFA ... it also suggests how to negotiate that minefield .... the bloody politicians should all be made to read it ....

It would be a Northern Ireland issue if the UK was prepared to cut Northern Ireland adrift for trade purposes, with the UK trade border starting in Wales ... that would give Northern Ireland the best of both world's - part of the UK and yet inside the EU trading zone - however politically this is understandably a near impossible sell to the people of Northern Ireland ...

So we're left with doing what works best for the 67 million in the UK ... or as I said doing what works best for the 5 million in Ireland ... because right now it's clear that these two options are a very long way apart ....

If Scotland or Northern Ireland vote to leave the UK then fair play to them ... so far they haven't ... so your point is mute ...

You're claiming you disagree with me, and at the same time admitting what I've said is correct.

[Phil71]

DG please go and read up on Northern Ireland, the Troubles, and specifically the Good Friday agreement,

Then you might understand what's at stake and the detail of why the border matters so much

There's a section in Article 24 of GATT that's the obvious solution to the Irish border problem.

It allows for a special trade deal between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic because of the contiguous land border between the two nations. It has been done before in other parts of Europe.

In other words, NI could remain in the Customs Union, in some form.

[DiamondGooner]

It's the detail that matters

Seamless interaction with Ireland is integral to the Good Friday Agreement

Why should we? Because we bloody agreed to it! It's a bloody agreement! Your cavalier attitude to people getting killed and peace braking down is f***ing pathetic

The GFA was one of the most important achievements in our country in the last 100 years. But as usual, one track mind.... Brexit, nothing else matters

I didn't say anything "cavalier" your just putting what I said into a context that suits you.

I said if they want to start killing each other just because of a checkpoint then they're stupid, I also said in today's climate that seems more bluff than bite.

The cooker pressure atmosphere of Irish Independence of the 70's and early 80's which fueled the violence has been quelled for 20 years, this is a new generation, the IRA isn't what it was back then and their potential pool of IRA terrorists are today's millennial's ............ they're too busy on Snap Chat to be planting bombs just because the IRA get there knickers in a twist over us leaving the EU.

............. also don't lecture me on "agreements" Remainer, there was also an agreement to carry out the result of the referendum but if there's no promises kept made to the British people then Ireland can get fked, I'm tired of Britain being the whipping boy's for Ireland's whims, Scotland's whims and the EU's.
We're always getting screwed over because we're "civilized" and people have had enough of it.

My ultimate point was that if the Government couldn't carry out "Leave" then they shouldn't of had the referendum in the first place ........... but they did, the result however they shape it needs to be delivered or democracy goes out the window and all previous agreements don't need to be upheld if we're going to have such "cavalier" politics.

[UFGN]

It's the detail that matters

Seamless interaction with Ireland is integral to the Good Friday Agreement

Why should we? Because we bloody agreed to it! It's a bloody agreement! Your cavalier attitude to people getting killed and peace braking down is f***ing pathetic

The GFA was one of the most important achievements in our country in the last 100 years. But as usual, one track mind.... Brexit, nothing else matters

I didn't say anything "cavalier" your just putting what I said into a context that suits you.

I said if they want to start killing each other just because of a checkpoint then they're stupid, I also said in today's climate that seems more bluff than bite.

The cooker pressure atmosphere of Irish Independence of the 70's and early 80's which fueled the violence has been quelled for 20 years, this is a new generation, the IRA isn't what it was back then and their potential pool of IRA terrorists are today's millennial's ............ they're too busy on Snap Chat to be planting bombs just because the IRA get there knickers in a twist over us leaving the EU.

............. also don't lecture me on "agreements" Remainer, there was also an agreement to carry out the result of the referendum but if there's no promises kept made to the British people then Ireland can get fked, I'm tired of Britain being the whipping boy's for Ireland's whims, Scotland's whims and the EU's.
We're always getting screwed over because we're "civilized" and people have had enough of it.

My ultimate point was that if the Government couldn't carry out "Leave" then they shouldn't of had the referendum in the first place ........... but they did, the result however they shape it needs to be delivered or democracy goes out the window and all previous agreements don't need to be upheld if we're going to have such "cavalier" politics.

Seriously, read my post and that answer. I'm bored of accusing people of things, only for them to furiously react and deny, in doing so confirming what I've said

[DiamondGooner]

Its not cavalier, its stating that at some point there is a choice to be made, do we constantly bend to exterior demands or do we draw a line in the sand and carry out the wishes of the British peoples interests for once.

I also said I don't believe the IRA has the capability or willing man power anymore to drag Ireland back to the days of IRA terrorist activity, yes that might be a "gamble" but again, do we bend to terrorist threats at a whim? regarding the GFA if its that important to not have a border then there are alternatives and compromises that can be made, it doesn't have to be this black and white answer.

This is the Conservatives job to sort out, they put this vote up, they got the result, they in turn have tasked themselves by default to now find the solution.

[UFGN]

Its not cavalier, its stating that at some point there is a choice to be made, do we constantly bend to exterior demands or do we draw a line in the sand and carry out the wishes of the British peoples interests for once.

I also said I don't believe the IRA has the capability or willing man power anymore to drag Ireland back to the days of IRA terrorist activity, yes that might be a "gamble" but again, do we bend to terrorist threats at a whim? regarding the GFA if its that important to not have a border then there are alternatives and compromises that can be made, it doesn't have to be this black and white answer.

This is the Conservatives job to sort out, they put this vote up, they got the result, they in turn have tasked themselves by default to now find the solution.

None of that squares the circle of you being happy to tare up a vitally important democratic agreement, which brought peace after thousands of murders and involved every political party in our country, the US and international observers

But hay, brexit gotta brexit cos that's where you've nailed your colours. Might lose internetz if you concede all democracy matters, not only the bit you've championed...... after not taking part in

[UFGN]

Just watching the Remembrance service from the cenotaph

I don't think the political leaders should be allowed to lay a reef each. It politicises it.

The Speaker should lay a reef for all of Parliament and no others are necessary

[EliteKiller]

Just watching the Remembrance service from the cenotaph

I don't think the political leaders should be allowed to lay a reef each. It politicises it.

The Speaker should lay a reef for all of Parliament and no others are necessary

Lay a wreath ..... but I take your point ..... went to a service in Belgium years ago where only grandchildren and great-grandchildren got to lay wreaths, took all the politics out of it ..... it was very moving ....