The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Debate about anything going on in the world.
Please remember everyone has their own opinion

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby LMAO » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:32 am

EliteKiller wrote:
LMAO wrote:But not when it occurred ;) can't ex post facto


and that's the great escape ... things that occurred in history under different circumstances are what they are ... good, bad, indifferent you can't change them or blame their descendants ... otherwise you have the crazy situation where we'd be suing for historic events ... so cue the Democrats wanting to pay slave reparations (even though slavery ended 100 years ago) ... no doubt the Zulu's will be suing the Brits soon even though that war was over 100 years ago - oh wait they already are ..... guess those Japanese are in with a shout after all .... how about Dresden, or Baghdad do you think those residents have a claim?

as you so rightly say ex post facto law utter madness ...


Nope, at least not in modern times. Idk what the statute of limitations should be for reparations, but I do know it shouldn't extend generations. And this is coming from someone who has slave ancestors on one side and family that was murdered in the Holocaust on the other.

In the same vein as ex post facto, you can't punish a son for the sins of his father (well, you can in North Korea, but you know what I mean).
Image
User avatar
LMAO
Member of the Year 2019
Member of the Year 2019
 
Posts: 7942
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:53 pm

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Phil71 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:45 am

EliteKiller wrote:
Phil71 wrote:I knew a man many years ago who had been in a Japanese pow camp. He told me of some of the horrors he had witnessed.

The one that sticks in my mind was about an Australian prisoner who had escaped and been recaptured. The camp commandant ordered that he be strung up in the yard by his hands. He left him hanging there for two days before finally calling the whole camp out to watch the spectacle. One of the particularly cruel guards slit the man’s belly open, and tugged out a piece of his gut, before enticing one of the stray dogs that hung around the camp to grab it. The camp watched as the dog pulled the man’s entrails out all over the yard.


So dropping Nuclear Weapons on innocent women and children (and stray dogs) was a reasonable response?

There have been untold stabbings in London this year ... should we use tactical nukes on Ealing?

I'm taking the piss of course, but even if you accept that Hiroshima was justified and I don't, there is no excuse at all for the second 'test' on Nagasaki ... that's a war crime under any modern definition ... it's just lucky for the US that the winners write our history ...

Genghis Khan must have been a great family man, at least 16m of us are direct descendants of his today, that whole "Warlord mass rapist tag" that's just bad press coverage ...


When it's put into a context where 50,000,000 people have already died in the six or eight years of war leading up to it, and thousands more are dying during every week that goes by where Japan don't surrender, it's small potatoes.

And as I said earlier, it sent the sabre-rattling Russians scuttling back to Moscow.
User avatar
Phil71
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 5523
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:30 pm

EliteKiller wrote:The UN Definition of War Crimes includes:

making the civilian population or individual civilians, not taking a direct part in hostilities, the object of attack;
• launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;
• making non-defended localities and demilitarized zones the object of attack;


Hard to argue that the dropping of a Nuclear Weapon on a civilian target does not breach all three of these 'rules' .... yes it was a different time, yes the Japanese had done terrible things, however if you accept that the killing of women and children to theoretically prevent the loss of soldier's lives is an acceptable act? where do you draw the line? Is rape OK if it will stop the next village from fighting? is beheading of children OK to stop parents fighting? is bombing civilian targets ever acceptable?

Only one Country has ever used Nuclear Weapons and they did so at very the first opportunity they got .... did their action save soldiers lives, quite probably. Does that make this act of mass murder justifiable? probably not ....

So should the USA apologise for murdering 10's of 1000's of civilians .... well why not? They can couch the apology to say "what we did we deemed necessary"and yet still say "we're terribly sorry for the death and suffering we caused" .... no loss of face to anyone .... it's just a shame political arrogance prevents it ......


Why is anyone concerned about apologies??? Brits who bombed Dresden and other cities to dust apologize for winning WWII? Apologize for colonialism and the slave trade? This whole notion of rewriting and judging history based on norms of our time vs past times is simply idle hypocrisy.
What would Nasri do? Never mind.
What would Eboue do? Fall off the stretcher.
What would Auba do? Just f***ing score.
Pat Rice in Short Shorts
Ian Wright
Ian Wright
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:05 pm
Location: Montana USA by way of Lewisham/Bromley UK

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby UFGN » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:58 pm

Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:
EliteKiller wrote:The UN Definition of War Crimes includes:

making the civilian population or individual civilians, not taking a direct part in hostilities, the object of attack;
• launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;
• making non-defended localities and demilitarized zones the object of attack;


Hard to argue that the dropping of a Nuclear Weapon on a civilian target does not breach all three of these 'rules' .... yes it was a different time, yes the Japanese had done terrible things, however if you accept that the killing of women and children to theoretically prevent the loss of soldier's lives is an acceptable act? where do you draw the line? Is rape OK if it will stop the next village from fighting? is beheading of children OK to stop parents fighting? is bombing civilian targets ever acceptable?

Only one Country has ever used Nuclear Weapons and they did so at very the first opportunity they got .... did their action save soldiers lives, quite probably. Does that make this act of mass murder justifiable? probably not ....

So should the USA apologise for murdering 10's of 1000's of civilians .... well why not? They can couch the apology to say "what we did we deemed necessary"and yet still say "we're terribly sorry for the death and suffering we caused" .... no loss of face to anyone .... it's just a shame political arrogance prevents it ......


Why is anyone concerned about apologies??? Brits who bombed Dresden and other cities to dust apologize for winning WWII? Apologize for colonialism and the slave trade? This whole notion of rewriting and judging history based on norms of our time vs past times is simply idle hypocrisy.


It was not the norm of society back then to slaughter civilians

I defend the Hiroshima attack as a desperately sad consequence of war, and it is difficult to criticise any decision made by the British, because ultimately, we simply had to win

However that doesn't mean its wrong to say later on, I'm sorry that happened. I'm sorry those people died, and we acknowledge that some of the things we did as stand alone acts were terrible.
Image
User avatar
UFGN
Member of the Year 2014, 19
Member of the Year 2014, 19
 
Posts: 19765
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: London, init

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:39 pm

Bombing and killing civilians was indeed the norm in WWII.

What is the point of apologizing for events that nobody alive was responsible for? History is to learned from not revised nor viewed through today’s lenses. All it is feel good bs IMO. The problem beyond the futility is that it is more about dividing than healing.
Last edited by Pat Rice in Short Shorts on Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What would Nasri do? Never mind.
What would Eboue do? Fall off the stretcher.
What would Auba do? Just f***ing score.
Pat Rice in Short Shorts
Ian Wright
Ian Wright
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:05 pm
Location: Montana USA by way of Lewisham/Bromley UK

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby UFGN » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:45 pm

Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:Bombing and killing civilians was indeed the norm in WWII.

What is the point of apologizing for events that nobody alive was responsible for? History is to learned from not revised nor viewed through today’s lenses. All it is feel good bs IMO. The problem beyond the futility is that it is more about deciding than healing.


Nice dodge

War was not the norm in society
Image
User avatar
UFGN
Member of the Year 2014, 19
Member of the Year 2014, 19
 
Posts: 19765
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: London, init

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:54 pm

Bombing and killing civilians was indeed the norm in WWII.

What is the point of apologizing for events that nobody alive was responsible for? History is to learned from not revised nor viewed through today’s lenses. All it is feel good bs IMO. The problem beyond the futility is that it is more about deciding than healing.
What would Nasri do? Never mind.
What would Eboue do? Fall off the stretcher.
What would Auba do? Just f***ing score.
Pat Rice in Short Shorts
Ian Wright
Ian Wright
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:05 pm
Location: Montana USA by way of Lewisham/Bromley UK

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby UFGN » Tue Nov 26, 2019 4:55 pm

The one take away message every right minded person involved in WW2 would send to future generations is, "you c*** must make sure this never happens again, ever"

We spent five years and basically all our money slaughtering each other back then

What does it matter if people want to occasionally spend a little time reinforcing the lessons of back then?
Image
User avatar
UFGN
Member of the Year 2014, 19
Member of the Year 2014, 19
 
Posts: 19765
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: London, init

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby VCC » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:25 pm

An apology should only happen on the basis that Germany and Japan actually accept the war make it part of their country's history curriculum in schools .in Japan case they have wiped the war from their history.
User avatar
VCC
Bertie Mee
Bertie Mee
 
Posts: 8305
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:04 am

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby DiamondGooner » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:32 pm

How can you apologise for dropping not one but two Nuclear bombs ffs??

Its not like losing someones set of keys.

I'd rather America said nothing, rather than give a fake apology they don't mean just to look good to Liberal Left voters.

Also let me point out America could of targeted more military targets rather than two Japanese towns similar to the Japanese targeting Pearl Harbour, not Los Angeles .......... but they didn't.

As we speak America are in Syria leaving enough troops to guard the Oil well's they're currently ripping off the country, and good on old Trump he flat out admitted it.

America's Gov't is as evil and ruthless as any other when it comes to taking what they want, they just have a better marketing team than lets say Russia.

Fk the apology, its done, no amount of voter flag waiving is going to undo it and no one is going to bring America to heel on it either so what's the point?
Image
User avatar
DiamondGooner
Member of the Year 2018
Member of the Year 2018
 
Posts: 21284
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:35 am
Location: At the Gucci store

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby StLGooner » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:01 pm

We probably owe many countries/people apologies. But hey survival of the fittest right?!? We only copied what all the other great powers of the world did before us. Us humans are a horrible, vile, species, and we will continue to be until we grow, evolve, and learn from our past mistakes.
Formerly ChVint22
User avatar
StLGooner
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 35678
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Phil71 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:41 pm

The bombs were dropped to end the world war.

It worked.
User avatar
Phil71
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 5523
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby StLGooner » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:43 pm

Phil71 wrote:The bombs were dropped to end the world war.

It worked.


So can we then make the argument that we actually saved lives overall? :think:
Formerly ChVint22
User avatar
StLGooner
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 35678
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby LMAO » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:54 pm

StLGooner wrote:
Phil71 wrote:The bombs were dropped to end the world war.

It worked.


So can we then make the argument that we actually saved lives overall? :think:


Yes, and that's why the bombs are justifiable. Else, there would've been an invasion of Japan where it's likely millions of lives would've been lost instead. Plus, it ended the war quicker. And now Japan is a close ally of ours. Win-win-win in my book.
Image
User avatar
LMAO
Member of the Year 2019
Member of the Year 2019
 
Posts: 7942
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:53 pm

Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Phil71 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:02 pm

The Japanese were defending every inch of land literally to the death. Thousands of allied troops were being killed taking each tiny island on the way to the mainland.

The war in Europe was over. People had had enough. Something had to be done.

And as I said earlier, the Russians knew that the western allies were war-weary, and there was a significant risk that they'd try to push the boundaries that had been established. Truman demonstrated very clearly that not only did America have the bomb, but more importantly that he was prepared to drop it.
User avatar
Phil71
Poster Of The Month
Poster Of The Month
 
Posts: 5523
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 pm

PreviousNext

Return to The Big Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
cron