The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby EliteKiller » Sun May 29, 2016 1:44 am

The UN Definition of War Crimes includes:

making the civilian population or individual civilians, not taking a direct part in hostilities, the object of attack;
• launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated;
• making non-defended localities and demilitarized zones the object of attack;


Hard to argue that the dropping of a Nuclear Weapon on a civilian target does not breach all three of these 'rules' .... yes it was a different time, yes the Japanese had done terrible things, however if you accept that the killing of women and children to theoretically prevent the loss of soldier's lives is an acceptable act? where do you draw the line? Is rape OK if it will stop the next village from fighting? is beheading of children OK to stop parents fighting? is bombing civilian targets ever acceptable?

Only one Country has ever used Nuclear Weapons and they did so at very the first opportunity they got .... did their action save soldiers lives, quite probably. Does that make this act of mass murder justifiable? probably not ....

So should the USA apologise for murdering 10's of 1000's of civilians .... well why not? They can couch the apology to say "what we did we deemed necessary"and yet still say "we're terribly sorry for the death and suffering we caused" .... no loss of face to anyone .... it's just a shame political arrogance prevents it ......
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby UFGN » Sun May 29, 2016 2:08 am

^^ There is one aspect you must bare in mind and that is that WWII was fought mainly by conscipts, including in Japan. Therefore the line between a soldier and a civilian was damn near non-existent.
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby VCC » Sun May 29, 2016 2:27 am

WW2 does not exist in Japanese history what are we discussing
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby StLGooner » Tue May 31, 2016 1:08 pm

I think people just need to understand it's War, and nothing good happens at war. The trick is to learn from it and try not to repeat history. I can see apologizing for mistakes, but this was war. As horrible as it was, we meant to do it. Maybe it was needed, maybe it wasn't, but it worked!

I have seen various US soldiers and politicians apologize to some of the remaining victims, but I don't think we've ever had a ceremonial type of apology.
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby RowdyRoddyPoppins » Tue May 31, 2016 2:08 pm

Couple of examples of the responses I got on facebook about this subject -

'Your onto a loser defending the use of a nuclear weapon and its deployment in a city full of innocent people.'

'Err no. Do you research - start with the oil embargo, then go back to Commodore Perry.
The US forced Japan to open its borders - sold them the idea and weapons for empire building - then starved the Japanese people when the US got worried that Japan was growing too quickly.
If you think Japan just bombed Pearl Harbour as a first act of aggression, you're sadly mistaken.'

'Japan did some pretty awful things - before and during the war. But the claim the dropping the atomic bombs _saved_ lives is reaching...
Also, claiming 300,000 deaths at Nanking isn't likely to be accurate - other sources quote not more than 15% of that. You'll see the same disparity between the quoted civilian casualties America inflicted on Japan. Unsurprisingly, the victims tally is always much higher than the perpetrators reckoning.'
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Jedi » Tue May 31, 2016 2:33 pm

UFGN wrote:^^ There is one aspect you must bare in mind and that is that WWII was fought mainly by conscipts, including in Japan. Therefore the line between a soldier and a civilian was damn near non-existent.

Yes, it's especially hard to tell if the women and children were civillians... Very bad argument, not even an argument, it's an excuse.
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby VCC » Tue May 31, 2016 5:03 pm

Wrong or right first what has happened needs to be accepted as history, and for Japan part the do not acknowledge the atrocities performed by them selves or even the war happened.I think that would be a good starting point.
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby DiamondGooner » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:29 pm

Well this is all very cosy.

Look America is no better than any other tyrant you can think of, they systematically target people in the Middle East like the Crusades are still on or something.

They are the only country in History to have dropped not one but two Atomic bombs on civilians, they have enslaved and tortured black people and this was acceptable under law of Government so it counts as a National act of aggression, they have wiped out the indigenous population of American Indians etc etc etc.

So that's correcting the "The Japanese are evil" vs the heroic Americans line.

That being said, I'd say this, fk em, they stared a fight and they got one, what the hell is there to complain about?

People really need to man up in today's society, lefty pandering has mean't politicians trying to score brownie points from social opinion (i.e those who shout the loudest) has mean't we're now all subject to this type of crap on a daily barrage basis.

I'm not anti left but I am anti extremist left, same way I'm against extremist Right, both are as tyrannical as each other, Donald Trump is karma's answer to all this PC brigade nonsense.

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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby UFGN » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:02 pm

Its a bit like when Argentina started a fight with Britain then everyone was "oh, no way, so sad" when the General Belgrano got f***ked up and loads of them died

What the f**k did they think would happen? They started a naval battle with the United (second biggest navy in the world at the time) Kingdom

f**k off!
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Phil71 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:02 am

UFGN wrote:
Jedieurokrem wrote:
Really like the argument "Japan didn't want to surrender, therefore they had to kill hundreds of thousands of civillians to save lives"


A land invasion was the only alternative and would probably have killed just as many people.

There were also thousands of allied civilians in Japanese internment camps in Japan and occupied China who were being starved to death by the Japs. A land war would have taken much longer and those prisoners didn't have time to spare.


This. It was taking forever to take each of those smaller islands, and the Japanese had said they would fight to the death on the mainland islands.

And the fact that the Soviet Union had a huge army right in the heart of Europe, and it was threatening to continue its march to occupy the whole of Germany. And would it stop there? So the Americans killed two birds with one stone. They ended the war in the far east, and avoided another war in Europe by showing the Russians that they had the bomb, and were prepared to use it.
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Nuggets » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:16 pm

VCC wrote:Wrong or right first what has happened needs to be accepted as history, and for Japan part the do not acknowledge the atrocities performed by them selves or even the war happened.I think that would be a good starting point.


Sounds about right, don't think it will happen though.
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby Phil71 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:30 pm

Nuggets wrote:
VCC wrote:Wrong or right first what has happened needs to be accepted as history, and for Japan part the do not acknowledge the atrocities performed by them selves or even the war happened.I think that would be a good starting point.


Sounds about right, don't think it will happen though.


I knew a man many years ago who had been in a Japanese pow camp. He told me of some of the horrors he had witnessed.

The one that sticks in my mind was about an Australian prisoner who had escaped and been recaptured. The camp commandant ordered that he be strung up in the yard by his hands. He left him hanging there for two days before finally calling the whole camp out to watch the spectacle. One of the particularly cruel guards slit the man’s belly open, and tugged out a piece of his gut, before enticing one of the stray dogs that hung around the camp to grab it. The camp watched as the dog pulled the man’s entrails out all over the yard.
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:41 am

Phil71 wrote:I knew a man many years ago who had been in a Japanese pow camp. He told me of some of the horrors he had witnessed.

The one that sticks in my mind was about an Australian prisoner who had escaped and been recaptured. The camp commandant ordered that he be strung up in the yard by his hands. He left him hanging there for two days before finally calling the whole camp out to watch the spectacle. One of the particularly cruel guards slit the man’s belly open, and tugged out a piece of his gut, before enticing one of the stray dogs that hung around the camp to grab it. The camp watched as the dog pulled the man’s entrails out all over the yard.


So dropping Nuclear Weapons on innocent women and children (and stray dogs) was a reasonable response?

There have been untold stabbings in London this year ... should we use tactical nukes on Ealing?

I'm taking the piss of course, but even if you accept that Hiroshima was justified and I don't, there is no excuse at all for the second 'test' on Nagasaki ... that's a war crime under any modern definition ... it's just lucky for the US that the winners write our history ...

Genghis Khan must have been a great family man, at least 16m of us are direct descendants of his today, that whole "Warlord mass rapist tag" that's just bad press coverage ...
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby LMAO » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:07 am

EliteKiller wrote:
Phil71 wrote:I knew a man many years ago who had been in a Japanese pow camp. He told me of some of the horrors he had witnessed.

The one that sticks in my mind was about an Australian prisoner who had escaped and been recaptured. The camp commandant ordered that he be strung up in the yard by his hands. He left him hanging there for two days before finally calling the whole camp out to watch the spectacle. One of the particularly cruel guards slit the man’s belly open, and tugged out a piece of his gut, before enticing one of the stray dogs that hung around the camp to grab it. The camp watched as the dog pulled the man’s entrails out all over the yard.


So dropping Nuclear Weapons on innocent women and children (and stray dogs) was a reasonable response?

There have been untold stabbings in London this year ... should we use tactical nukes on Ealing?

I'm taking the piss of course, but even if you accept that Hiroshima was justified and I don't, there is no excuse at all for the second 'test' on Nagasaki ... that's a war crime under any modern definition ... it's just lucky for the US that the winners write our history ...

Genghis Khan must have been a great family man, at least 16m of us are direct descendants of his today, that whole "Warlord mass rapist tag" that's just bad press coverage ...


But not when it occurred ;) can't ex post facto
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Re: The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Postby EliteKiller » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:37 am

LMAO wrote:But not when it occurred ;) can't ex post facto


and that's the great escape ... things that occurred in history under different circumstances are what they are ... good, bad, indifferent you can't change them or blame their descendants ... otherwise you have the crazy situation where we'd be suing for historic events ... so cue the Democrats wanting to pay slave reparations (even though slavery ended 100 years ago) ... no doubt the Zulu's will be suing the Brits soon even though that war was over 100 years ago - oh wait they already are ..... guess those Japanese are in with a shout after all .... how about Dresden, or Baghdad do you think those residents have a claim?

as you so rightly say ex post facto law utter madness ...
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