Goonersworld

Maradonna wrote:i saw that the topic of human nature has come a couple of times already:
what im going to post is an incredible document, Chomsky and Foucault arguing the concept of human nature (im much closer to Foucault than im to Chomsky) both thinkers exposing incredible points, basically Foucault disregard the concept as a fantasy while Chomsky insists that something like human nature exists.

Enjoy:

Thank you. I will watch this later tonight. I have a couple of Chomsky's books and I respect a lot of what he says so it will be interesting to see how he fares here.

Va-Va-Voom wrote:

Maradonna wrote:well if you feel like killing someone, you cant, because it will cost you a life imprisonment, or in some cases, yes, Death penalty. Im not saying that killing is good, im saying that the solution to a problem is still the same.
we are so in love of enlightenment democracy and republic, we have many reasons to be. but at the same time we must be extremely critical of our current situations (the jail institution, for example, its an utter joke) We are still very very barbaric and we are still appling the same solution to our problems.
Btw how is china, tell us about it, it must be mesmerizing? where are you staying, what about the cities?, are you alone or with family? i want information!!!!!!

I agree with this as far as the extremely punitive sentences and that it's essentially a continuation of slave labour - especially in the US where the mass incarceration of blacks is out of control - and the fact that it doesn't actually achieve it's supposed purpose (rehabilitating offenders) but it will always be necessary for rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc.

What would your alternative be for violent/sexual criminals?

i dont consider myself smart enough to come with a solution for a psycopathic conduct, what i do know because i have studied a lot of criminology and i have worked as a voluntary in a bunch of womans prisons, is that at least 90% of jail population could be much more helped with an ambulatory sentence or a monetary sentence, i do know that the psycopath is just a very small percentage of the entire population, the rest of the people is just in a big majority small drug dealers and small thiefs, and the other thing that you can conclude is that 99% of jails population comes form otherty (poor people and minorities), the rich always get away with it in the burocratic system of justice, they always find the hole. And btw, in most cases jails makes people worst, not better, but i think that is giving for granted now, no intelligent human being can still think that jails repairs people. it is an exclusion dispositive, its shares the same ends with cementaries or psyquiatric institutions. it hides and holds.

Maradonna wrote:

Va-Va-Voom wrote:

Maradonna wrote:well if you feel like killing someone, you cant, because it will cost you a life imprisonment, or in some cases, yes, Death penalty. Im not saying that killing is good, im saying that the solution to a problem is still the same.
we are so in love of enlightenment democracy and republic, we have many reasons to be. but at the same time we must be extremely critical of our current situations (the jail institution, for example, its an utter joke) We are still very very barbaric and we are still appling the same solution to our problems.
Btw how is china, tell us about it, it must be mesmerizing? where are you staying, what about the cities?, are you alone or with family? i want information!!!!!!

I agree with this as far as the extremely punitive sentences and that it's essentially a continuation of slave labour - especially in the US where the mass incarceration of blacks is out of control - and the fact that it doesn't actually achieve it's supposed purpose (rehabilitating offenders) but it will always be necessary for rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc.

What would your alternative be for violent/sexual criminals?

i dont consider myself smart enough to come with a solution for a psycopathic conduct, what i do know because i have studied a lot of criminology and i have worked as a voluntary in a bunch of womans prisons, is that at least 90% of jail population could be much more helped with an ambulatory sentence or a monetary sentence, i do know that the psycopath is just a very small percentage of the entire population, the rest of the people is just in a big majority small drug dealers and small thiefs, and the other thing that you can conclude is that 99% of jails population comes form otherty (poor people and minorities), the rich always get away with it in the burocratic system of justice, they always find the hole. And btw, in most cases jails makes people worst, not better, but i think that is giving for granted now, no intelligent human being can still think that jails repairs people. it is an exclusion dispositive, its shares the same ends with cementaries or psyquiatric institutions. it hides and holds.

Great post. I agree with all of this.

From Vava and Mara's discussions, so what is the alternate to prison sentences? And, in case of psychopaths, what do you guys offer as solutions? Re: monetary sentences, wouldn't that be just serving the haves?

Angelito wrote:From Vava and Mara's discussions, so what is the alternate to prison sentences?

i suggested ambulatory sentences, and monetary sentences, but again, this is a very new topic (it seems that before foucault no one realices that jails are a terrible idea) and im no expert in what can and cant work. I still feel that the major focus from society should be on prevention, on stop creating otherty, so you dont have a population to send to prision. how do you end otherty?, trought politics. Santioning laws, and creating conditions so everyone has equal chances and treatment
if you are really interested in the topic you can learn more about it by reading the guy who practically formed me as an academic: Raul Zaffaroni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%BAl_Zaffaroni, he is top five in the world when it comes to criminology.
Regarding Psycopaths, I think tecnology is the key, but again im no expert on the topic you can maybe found more information about it if you read about Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation on jails.

whats a monetary and ambulatory sentence?

Héctor24 wrote:whats a monetary and ambulatory sentence?

monetary is like a tax, ambulatory is just go home report yourself and do some comunal work.
but, i think your question is about sentence, what a sentence is, and that my friend is the 2 million dollar question.

since you fellas brought the subject up.

God gave us the justice system to implement

Lol

Maradonna wrote:

Héctor24 wrote:whats a monetary and ambulatory sentence?

monetary is like a tax, ambulatory is just go home report yourself and do some comunal work.
but, i think your question is about sentence, what a sentence is, and that my friend is the 2 million dollar question.

I actually agree with that one, there are two types of criminals ..........

A) Someone who has been bought up around people who have not taught them life skills to earn a living legally.

B) Someone who is just an out and out criminal and wants to be.

For prisoner A) putting them in jail is just furthering their downfall by once again surrounding them with people like prisoner B) who's influence is just going to lead them further down the criminal path but if as you suggested they served their sentence doing a job apprenticeship that they chose from a list of work that suits their educational results i.e tiling, paving, construction something where you don't need high level grades then they could actually serve a 2 year sentence on tag instead of jail and be forced to do 2 years apprenticeship.

The employer will get cheap labour and the first offender would get a trade removing his need to commit crime for money and will learn some work ethic.

DiamondGooner wrote:

Maradonna wrote:

Héctor24 wrote:whats a monetary and ambulatory sentence?

monetary is like a tax, ambulatory is just go home report yourself and do some comunal work.
but, i think your question is about sentence, what a sentence is, and that my friend is the 2 million dollar question.

I actually agree with that one, there are two types of criminals ..........

A) Someone who has been bought up around people who have not taught them life skills to earn a living legally.

B) Someone who is just an out and out criminal and wants to be.

For prisoner A) putting them in jail is just furthering their downfall by once again surrounding them with people like prisoner B) who's influence is just going to lead them further down the criminal path but if as you suggested they served their sentence doing a job apprenticeship that they chose from a list of work that suits their educational results i.e tiling, paving, construction something where you don't need high level grades then they could actually serve a 2 year sentence on tag instead of jail and be forced to do 2 years apprenticeship.

The employer will get cheap labour and the first offender would get a trade removing his need to commit crime for money and will learn some work ethic.

Agree here

Person A) is also very unlikely to commit crimes like rape or murder, and is more likely to just have been a thief, small pickpocket, etc. He/She will just go more mad in jail.

But then again, with jails themselves being a business in some countries, rehabilitation is directly against their profit margins

Apart from petty crimes...

A wise man once said, A god criminal is a dead criminal.

Apollo wrote:Apart from petty crimes...

A wise man once said, A god criminal is a dead criminal.

Death makes him Godly, how?

ambulatory sounds like a good idea. Monetary is an awful idea. Imagine people doing crime to earn money in the first place and then because they were caught being in far more debt in the first place. What are they likely to return to.