Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby StLGooner » Thu May 28, 2015 5:09 pm

Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
Angelito wrote:Religion is against life and living.

Wow, how sophisticated.
lol
you have the theological understanding of a 11 years old.
its like when a kid tries to explain the big bang.
or a fox news reporter trying to explain the "muslim world" (wherever that phrase means)
sad when people talk about what they dont understand.


How would you even know what he does or doesn't understand? You took a 6 word sentence and assumed so much about him from that, and then tried to insult him. That's what I would call sad.

because that is a terrible phrase that is brutally ignorant. When someone said something racist i stand up and say something about it, when someone said something as offending as that, i stand up and say something about it.
we should be all alarmed by a fascist statement.
it is ignorant, its like listening to neuroscientists talk about religion (Sam Harris), it's like Darwin Evolutionists talking about race and measuring heads at the beginning of the XX century. All behind a "secular" oratory that embellish a very conservative and unsophisticated full of hate way of thinking.
It's awful. Demining and ignorant.



So why is it that under the name of religion or God, people are allowed to be "racist, and ignorant", and very hateful, but when people say the same about religion in general it's not ok. Kind of a double standard isn't it? Religion shouldn't be protected from it's hypocritical bigotry. And calling it out and making religion accountable for it's horrible actions is something that is needed
.

im not a religious person, i dont justify hate, period.
and religion dont kill, people does.
religion its just a signpost, a language, a complexity of symbols and metaphors to explain what it's unexplainable, the divine experience. Language and words don't kill people, people kill people.
What angelito said is ignorant a fascist and it should not be tolerated.



I will kindly disagree. Yes, it is people that do the killing, but you would have to have lived under a rock your entire life if you don't think that religion influences people to do very evil things. Yes, the moderate everyday person that believes in a God in one sense or another is a very good person most likely, probably like you and I. But religion definitely deserves it's criticism. It states that people who don't follow it or believe in it deserve a lake of fire for eternity. It endorses slavery, oppresses women, and obviously thinks gay people are less than human. It is very anti-life and living in my opinion, and Anglito has every right to say that.

because KKK exist, white people is racist.
Generalization its terrible when you talk about social issues. Academics all over the world are appalled by the way religion its treated. We fear what we dont know.
Debt its much of a problem than religion, Isis Palestina and Israel conflicts are about Territory and tribal situations, not about religion. Religion it is used as a tool to explain tribal, territorial and economical valid and invalid grievances, Of course people on both sides have a very cosmic view of that territory and that conflict, but, are we, westernized secular humans going to do the same? are we going to talk about it with a cosmic magical view, or are we going to talk about it as it is, a territorial economical tribal conflict. we should talk about it as what it is.
this analysis applies to every single war in the name of god that was in place through history.
Religion its just a language, i can say that i kill in the name of god, democracy, freedom, etc. its not about the language it's about the acts, and im gay btw, so getting to this place was extremadly hard for me, especially coming from a very religious country and background. i learned, by studying, to understand religion for what it is.



I know you're gay, I remember you telling me. I too have read about religion and studied it a bit, not in school but on my own. And I'm not generalizing, I'm talking of the 3 main religions of the world, and how they scream for equality and love, but underneath it all promote bigotry and hatred. Doesn't mean I accuse every religious person of this, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy and double standard. I understand that religions can be interpreted and taken anyway you want to take it, which in itself is a bit hypocritical. Cause lets be honest, very few religious people follow everything their holy books teach, they cherry pick the parts they like and ignore the parts they don't. To me you either believe and follow all of it, or none at all. Then they use those beliefs to mask their hatred and bigotry. Again, not saying every person, but very many do.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby UFGN » Thu May 28, 2015 5:15 pm

Religion when used to oppress people is fascism.

Therefore religions which promote intolerance are fascist by their very nature. And that includes Christianity, so bollocks to anyone who wants to try and defend what this Vatican fascist has to say. Anyone who's offended by that can swivel.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby CukiZeGerman » Thu May 28, 2015 5:16 pm

Maradonaitis is not so wrong for once.

The problem in general isn't the religion (or religions for that matter). Because I don't think that most religions propagate / teach hate.
The problem is that people in 99% of the cases use / preach religion the way it suites them best - to hate on other people or to profit from it.

Tho' I do agree to some extent with StLGooner and Angelito.
The whole concept of todays Catholic church is f***ked up.

A good example is that priest from Germany that used 32 mil. € to renovate his house FFS.
And that is not a single case, there are MANY more like him.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby StLGooner » Thu May 28, 2015 5:38 pm

CukiZeGerman wrote:Maradonaitis is not so wrong for once.

The problem in general isn't the religion (or religions for that matter). Because I don't think that most religions propagate / teach hate.
The problem is that people in 99% of the cases use / preach religion the way it suites them best - to hate on other people or to profit from it.

Tho' I do agree to some extent with StLGooner and Angelito.
The whole concept of todays Catholic church is f***ked up.

A good example is that priest from Germany that used 32 mil. € to renovate his house FFS.
And that is not a single case, there are MANY more like him.



It literally says in the old testament (and parts of the new) to kill gay people, to kill people who eat shellfish, to kill people who get tattoos. To not let woman talk in church, that woman should obey their husbands, and probably 100's of more hateful things that you can easily search on google. Yes, most people don't take these things literally (thankfully), and there are a lot who do. See West Borough Baptist Church for example.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby StLGooner » Thu May 28, 2015 5:38 pm

UFGN wrote:Religion when used to oppress people is fascism.

Therefore religions which promote intolerance are fascist by their very nature. And that includes Christianity, so bollocks to anyone who wants to try and defend what this Vatican fascist has to say. Anyone who's offended by that can swivel.


Exactly!
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby Maradonna » Thu May 28, 2015 8:41 pm

many good points here, but people, dont forget that institutions are not religion, they are 2 completely different things.
You can be against politics yet be in concord with the concept of Republic.
you can be a communist and hate what humans did with that concept.
I know many people that despise institutional religion yet are very serious about their faith.

The catholic church is a walking joke, yet that has nothing to do with christianity.

Beatitudes:

Blessed are [you]...[4][5][8]

...who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
...who hunger now, for you will be satisfied.
...who weep now, for you will laugh.
...when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of man.

Woe to you...:[4]

...who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
...who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.
...who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.
...when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

again, im not a christian, but thats some powerfull message, especially the woe`s, thats Che Guevara material right there.
So in a sense, religion its what you make out of it.


StLGooner wrote:It literally says in the old testament (and parts of the new) to kill gay people, to kill people who eat shellfish, to kill people who get tattoos. To not let woman talk in church, that woman should obey their husbands, and probably 100's of more hateful things that you can easily search on google. Yes, most people don't take these things literally (thankfully), and there are a lot who do. See West Borough Baptist Church for example.



We are talking about a text that was written in the 3rd century BC when the notions of history and truth were completely different to the ones that we have in todays world, A text that was directed to a very specific collective that lived in a very specific period of time. so why are we doing the same as ISIS and the Mennonites? why are we interpreting this signpost as a prehistoric human, when we know that this is not the way that the material should be understand it.
This is the problem that i have when people read scriptures in that way, you fall in the same category as a Fundamentalist. It is very unsophisticated to approach the scriptures in that way, you are taking everything out of context.
if we take that path, we are falling in the same category as this deluded thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_Museum

We should be doing much better than that, we should be understanding that this texts are just a set of metaphors and symbols to explain the mystic experience, to organize a collective. It is really hard to separate it, but one must absolutely try to do it, because if you dont do it, you are just as sophisticated as the pope.
and btw im a philosophy teacher, and theology is a subject that im passionate about so sorry if i sound like an petulant dumb, but i try to express with my poor english some very complex views on a very complex subject.
Last edited by Maradonna on Thu May 28, 2015 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby LMAO » Thu May 28, 2015 9:04 pm

No matter what their adherents try to preach, the Abrahamic religions (i.e., Judaism, Christianity, Islam) are all barbaric and deserve no place in modern society. I don't have a problem with many individual adherents because I am friends with/know plenty of moderate and liberal Jews, Christians, and Muslims. However, that doesn't change the fact that their respective religions are violent in nature. There are still the extremists that create a bad name for Jews, Christians, and Muslims—shockingly, those are the ones who more closely adhere to the contents of their respective holy books.

But to be honest, I don't care what religion people follow as long as they don't shove it down other peoples' throats and keep it to themselves out of the public sphere. And that's the main problem I have with Christianity and Islam; they're proselytism religions by nature.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby Maradonna » Thu May 28, 2015 9:13 pm

Brandon wrote:But to be honest, I don't care what religion people follow as long as they don't shove it down other peoples' throats and keep it to themselves out of the public sphere. .

i remember people saying the same to me when i was a gay teenager in school, it makes me want to kill myself.
Brandon wrote:And that's the main problem I have with Christianity and Islam; they're proselytism religions by nature.

the Koran is against Proselytism, you should read it, its very cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawah
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby UFGN » Thu May 28, 2015 9:26 pm

You CAN NOT separate any religion from its holy text.

Muslims I've spoken to for example, don't even accept that the Koran was composed by mortal people... they assert that it is literally the word of Allah. Against that backdrop you then have a lot of hateful and violent shit done in it's name on it's authority.

You can say that people have interpreted the text to suit their own ends but you can not deny the text. It is front and centre part of the deal. And it looks to this casual observer that some passages of both the Bible and the Koran are undeniably hateful and promote violence.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby RowdyRoddyPoppins » Thu May 28, 2015 9:26 pm

People are free to choose what they want to believe.

Its when they start telling other people how to behave based on their beliefs is where we draw the line!
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby RowdyRoddyPoppins » Thu May 28, 2015 9:28 pm

UFGN wrote:You CAN NOT separate any religion from its holy text.

Muslims I've spoken to for example, don't even accept that the Koran was composed by mortal people... they assert that it is literally the word of Allah. Against that backdrop you then have a lot of hateful and violent shit done in it's name on it's authority.

You can say that people have interpreted the text to suit their own ends but you can not deny the text. It is front and centre part of the deal. And it looks to this casual observer that some passages of both the Bible and the Koran are undeniably hateful and promote violence.



I agree.

I will add that a Muslim friend of mine once said about the Koran - 'As Muslims, we must not hesitate, we must believe every word'.
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby Maradonna » Thu May 28, 2015 9:32 pm

UFGN wrote:You CAN NOT separate any religion from its holy text.
Muslims I've spoken to for example, don't even accept that the Koran was composed by mortal people... they assert that it is literally the word of Allah. Against that backdrop you then have a lot of hateful and violent shit done in it's name on it's authority.


ancient and modern kabalistics consider that the torah its is THE ACTUAL NAME OF GOD. Every single letter in the Torah represents an actual aspect of the divine, yet you don't see kabalistics killing people. You must separate both topics because they are different, the scriptures are completely different to what a religion is.

UFGN wrote:You can say that people have interpreted the text to suit their own ends but you can not deny the text. It is front and centre part of the deal. And it looks to this casual observer that some passages of both the Bible and the Koran are undeniably hateful and promote violence.


you should not read a scripture as a fundamentalist, there are more passages about love than hate, again nitpicking make us just as sophisticated as the taliban's.
I dont blame Marx because of the Soviet catastrophe, do you?
in that case you should study more.

i suggest you to read also what french post structuralists have to say about pastoral power.

http://foucaultacrossthedisciplines.blo ... power.html

=
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby CukiZeGerman » Thu May 28, 2015 9:35 pm

RowdyRoddyPoppins wrote:People are free to choose what they want to believe.

Its when they start telling other people how to behave based on their beliefs is where we draw the line!


basicly best post of the thread
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby LMAO » Thu May 28, 2015 9:40 pm

Maradonaitis wrote:you should not read a scripture as a fundamentalist, there are more passages about love than hate, again nitpicking make us just as sophisticated as the taliban's.


So if I adopt 10 refugee children but murder 7 people, it's all fine and dandy because I showed more love than hate?
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Re: Religion and Oppression (ft. the Catholic Church)

Postby Apollo » Thu May 28, 2015 9:40 pm

RowdyRoddyPoppins wrote:People are free to choose what they want to believe.

Its when they start telling other people how to behave based on their beliefs is where we draw the line!


This is not exclusive to religion, this is just a part of human identity.

General question,

Do you get as frustrated with people who say that Religion has no place in society compared to the people who try to sell on any specific religion.

I don't draw a distinction between the two.
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