UK European Union in / out referendum

[UFGN]

On a side note, why is the PM using such a shit plane? Its embarrassing. Surely they've got better aircraft than an ugly converted military cargo plane. If not, bloody buy one.

[DiamondGooner]

I asked two questions you've not answered either UFGN.

Answer me this, how can Theresa May promise something that the EU may refuse? how can she promise access to the single market when its the EU who has the final say on that issue?

second question, if she doesn't go for free movement or the single market, what then, block Brexit?

[UFGN]

I asked two questions you've not answered either UFGN.

Answer me this, how can Theresa May promise something that the EU may refuse? how can she promise access to the single market when its the EU who has the final say on that issue?

second question, if she doesn't go for free movement or the single market, what then, block Brexit?

On the first point, I don't know, neither do you and neither does she. Britain is one party in a divorce. Its a messy undesirable situation that could have serious consequences and that is one of the many reasons I backed remain.

On the second, the point of having MPs have a say on the process is about details of many different issues. For example if we are not in the free market then what tarriffs will different industries face? Will a particular industry get preferential treatment over another? What sweetners are likely to have to be payed at taxpayers expense, to protect jobs? (Nissan type situations, etc. We still don't know what happened there.)

If a small number of gvmt ministers are allowed to call all the shots, I forsee stitch ups, corruption, half baked solutions and a bad deal for the normal taxpayer.

[DiamondGooner]

Exactly Parliament are demanding answers May can't give hence why this call for scrutiny was a silly idea to begin with, they're saying they won't block brexit but I don't see how they can endorse something where they'll not have the guarantees their looking for.

This whole fiasco right of law or not has just caused a stalling tactic, no Prime Minister whether it be May or anyone else can tell parliament the outcome of the deals when the deals have not even been negotiated or what terms we're seeking if the EU refuses to grant it anyway.

This whole argument is a dead duck so its now going to go to a re-election with a 2nd mandate for Brexit or the Court allows May to get on with it.

Its going to be a re-election.

Even if May attempted to run her plans through parliament they'd not agree on it and it'll take years.

I don't know if Theresa May chasing the judicial route is either stupidity, sabotage (as she is a remainer) or just desperate to have her cake and eat it i.e get the Royal perogative and not have to do a re-election.

Her 3rd option however is to call a bill to be passed on sanctioning article 50 and daring MP's to hang themselves out to dry to be targeted by the public as blocking Brexit.

[Royal Gooner]

Well she can't call a snap election due to Clegg's Fixed Term Parliament Act and Labour would actively block any attempt to have parliament dissolved if she pursued the legal means under the act. The court route is going to be whether the judges believe in Crown prerogative or Parliamentary supremacy in treaties.

I think the bill is the most likely route as all they need in it is "Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is hereby invoked". That way there is very little room for Labour or the LieDems to make mischief with it. She can whip her MPs with a 3 line whip so not only would they have to face the public for being undemocratic, they would also end their political careers then and there. As for Tony's Cronies in the Lords, the Parliament Acts allow for her to bypass them if they block it.

[UFGN]

Exactly Parliament are demanding answers May can't give hence why this call for scrutiny was a silly idea to begin with, they're saying they won't block brexit but I don't see how they can endorse something where they'll not have the guarantees their looking for.

This whole fiasco right of law or not has just caused a stalling tactic, no Prime Minister whether it be May or anyone else can tell parliament the outcome of the deals when the deals have not even been negotiated or what terms we're seeking if the EU refuses to grant it anyway.

This whole argument is a dead duck so its now going to go to a re-election with a 2nd mandate for Brexit or the Court allows May to get on with it.

Its going to be a re-election.

Even if May attempted to run her plans through parliament they'd not agree on it and it'll take years.

I don't know if Theresa May chasing the judicial route is either stupidity, sabotage (as she is a remainer) or just desperate to have her cake and eat it i.e get the Royal perogative and not have to do a re-election.

Her 3rd option however is to call a bill to be passed on sanctioning article 50 and daring MP's to hang themselves out to dry to be targeted by the public as blocking Brexit.

Way to ignore my second paragraph. We are not agreeing here at all. I would rather see years of negotiation and a delay in article 50 if that achieves a better result.

[DiamondGooner]

Way to ignore my second paragraph. We are not agreeing here at all. I would rather see years of negotiation and a delay in article 50 if that achieves a better result.

Its not ignored, just completely un-agreed, we have two years to hash over details with a Gov dept already dedicated to it once article 50 is triggered.

............ but the biggest point that you've painfully ignored or forgotten, the EU members have CLEARLY stated over and over that negotiations will not begin until we trigger article 50 so your "point" is pointless.

[DiamondGooner]

Well she can't call a snap election due to Clegg's Fixed Term Parliament Act and Labour would actively block any attempt to have parliament dissolved if she pursued the legal means under the act. The court route is going to be whether the judges believe in Crown prerogative or Parliamentary supremacy in treaties.

I think the bill is the most likely route as all they need in it is "Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is hereby invoked". That way there is very little room for Labour or the LieDems to make mischief with it. She can whip her MPs with a 3 line whip so not only would they have to face the public for being undemocratic, they would also end their political careers then and there. As for Tony's Cronies in the Lords, the Parliament Acts allow for her to bypass them if they block it.

Yep,

The worst thing is I know deep down May wants the quasi-Soft Brexit Parliament wants so their fears are unfounded, shes already told them she wants the single market and we know we can't get that without freedom of movement so this move by the courts is Parliaments attempt to take back power from the people following the referendum result and have it done their way, the problem is once you let the cooks into the kitchen all hell will break loose and nothing will get ratified.

TBH the whole thing feels like a stitch up, if the referendum wasn't attached as "advisory" we wouldn't be having this conversation, they screwed us by creating a fail safe on a question with only two possible answers so why the need for the fail safe? why pursue the Pro-Euro courts? why keep saying "March for article 50" when you've been told you don't have authority?

Its almost sabotage worthy.

The Bill is the only answer and I'd love to see the look on Parliaments face so gleeful with "Sovereignty returned to Parliament (instead of the people)" when they don't get to vote on the details just a stark "Invoke Article 50" Yes or no and see the dread come over them when they realise they'll be outed in public and have to face the firing squad.

[UFGN]

Way to ignore my second paragraph. We are not agreeing here at all. I would rather see years of negotiation and a delay in article 50 if that achieves a better result.

Its not ignored, just completely un-agreed, we have two years to hash over details with a Gov dept already dedicated to it once article 50 is triggered.

............ but the biggest point that you've painfully ignored or forgotten, the EU members have CLEARLY stated over and over that negotiations will not begin until we trigger article 50 so your "point" is pointless.

A government department? Lol its four ministers. Lets be generous and include Borris Johnson and his deputies and that's about eight.

And one of them is Borris Johnson.

No way. This requires involvement from all MPs or at the very least a large cross party select committee.

Regarding formal negotiations vs informal, it's bollocks to an extent. Priorities, budgets, tax implications including tax break incentives can be discussed right now.

[Callum]

May wants whatever will curry her the most favour with the electorate and her party. The reason why she is Prime Minister is because she never went all-in with either Remain or Leave. That's why I'm delighted Parliament will have a say on this matter - this momentous decision shouldn't be carried out with only the a select few members of the Tory party calling the shots.

[DiamondGooner]

May wants whatever will curry her the most favour with the electorate and her party. The reason why she is Prime Minister is because she never went all-in with either Remain or Leave. That's why I'm delighted Parliament will have a say on this matter - this momentous decision shouldn't be carried out with only the a select few members of the Tory party calling the shots.

I'd prepare to get disappointed if I were you.

If May plays her cards right and quite frankly I don't think she can play it any other way once she's exhausted her options.

It'll either end up in a Brexit decided by her and the Conservatives or Parliament will be in direct opposition to the people, even though their having their little moment of glory once the next move is put into play I think its going to become a very uncomfortable situation for them.

This is not me saying fk off to reason, its because as pointed out earlier it cannot go any other way.
Brexit is not feesable in a cross party debate on policy, it just won't work, too my laws to approve, too many differing opinions, nothing will get ratified so in a way the court decision has backed the Conservatives into a corner.

This may actually end up in a Hard Brexit now thanks to Remainer interference.

If Theresa May has to go back to the infuriated public over this and promise Hard Brexit? at least the way she was doing it she was saying "Ok Brexit will be delivered but I'll do whats best for the country" and most people were happy with that, now she may have to have a harder stance to rally all of the Brexit vote.

For acting like spoiled children the Remoaners may have ended up making this worse.

[UFGN]

May wants whatever will curry her the most favour with the electorate and her party. The reason why she is Prime Minister is because she never went all-in with either Remain or Leave. That's why I'm delighted Parliament will have a say on this matter - this momentous decision shouldn't be carried out with only the a select few members of the Tory party calling the shots.

I'd prepare to get disappointed if I were you.

If May plays her cards right and quite frankly I don't think she can play it any other way once she's exhausted her options.

It'll either end up in a Brexit decided by her and the Conservatives or Parliament will be in direct opposition to the people, even though their having their little moment of glory once the next move is put into play I think its going to become a very uncomfortable situation for them.

This is not me saying fk off to reason, its because as pointed out earlier it cannot go any other way.
Brexit is not feesable in a cross party debate on policy, it just won't work, too my laws to approve, too many differing opinions, nothing will get ratified so in a way the court decision has backed the Conservatives into a corner.

This may actually end up in a Hard Brexit now thanks to Remainer interference.

If Theresa May has to go back to the infuriated public over this and promise Hard Brexit? at least the way she was doing it she was saying "Ok Brexit will be delivered but I'll do whats best for the country" and most people were happy with that, now she may have to have a harder stance to rally all of the Brexit vote.

For acting like spoiled children the Remoaners may have ended up making this worse.

You keep saying that cross party talks are impossible. You just mean they are difficult. Don't blame the other side for trying to install a bit of oversight and honest debate into the process of negotiating Brexit. This is your pile of vomit and you're having a go at the people trying to clean it up.

It's you who is acting like a spoiled child. The smallest thing goes against Brexit happening as quickly as possible, and you haven't checked your toys, you've built a toy factory and chucked that.

If you had lost the referendum your behaviour here basically confirms that you wouldn't have taken it on the chin. Far from it you'd be moaning for ever more about it.

Yet any involvement in the process by people you don't like and even though you're getting Brexit, you're still not happy because it's not exactly how you want it.

The Brexit public is "infuriated" because a lot of them are f***ing idiots who suck up what filth like the Daily Mail tell them without understanding the facts. Yet you'd rather blame those who brought the case.

[Callum]

Whatever happens, Parliament will have had their say, and that's what matters. We're still going to leave the EU but I'd rather all of the MPs in the House of Commons have some sort of influence in how it all plays out, rather than May and her cronies having total control. It's how our political system is set up and it's only right that our politicians stick to the rule of law as per our constitution.

[DiamondGooner]

Cool.

You guys just aren't letting it sink in are you, show's how much you know about negotiations.

Cross party is not "difficult" it will be impossible to satisfy all parties when the EU holds the keys to what they'll accept and what they won't let alone all the parties agreeing, each party has a different agenda, not all these agendas will be fulfilled, this will lead to an indefinite stall, May know's this and so will take a different route.

Just shows the depth of the situation that you guys don't understand, how can you satisfy MP's that don't even want this to happen?

[GoonerAlexandre]

No one needs to fricking satisfy all parties, just the majority of Parliament. Hardly impossible, no one's going to be stupid enough to stand in the way of Article 50 except the Lib Dems with their 8 seats.

The details should be voted on in parliament