Police shoot boy, 12, carrying fake gun

[Trina]

The kid wasn't even aiming it at the police either..

[22-0]

This CHILD was not responsible for his own death. The two adults with guns and bullet proof vests who shot him dead are.

how about his parents,

[UFGN]

This CHILD was not responsible for his own death. The two adults with guns and bullet proof vests who shot him dead are.

how about his parents,

What about them? Weren't you allowed to play out when you were a kid?

[S&W the no1Fan]

Anybody that thinks a cop is capable of hitting an arm or leg in a split second life or death situation has clearly never used a firearm in their life. I don't care how good you are, that kind of shot is not possible, nor prudent. When the perpetrator is threatening causing death you neutralize the situation as quickly as possible, which is done by a center mass chest shot. Because shooting an active shooter in the leg is hardly going to slow him down, let alone stop him from shooting. Cops are trained that when you used your firearm, it's to stop immediately.

That said, THIS situation was poorly handled and probably didn't warrant the use of deadly force.

this pretty much

once you've decided to use a gun it has to be used in a deadly way, police officers have other non deadly alternatives. The real issue here was the policemans decision that deadly force is required.

People will look to blame everyone but i dont see much alternative really for the officers. Society tells them that young black kids are dangerous, news channels paint that picture, the hip hop game of today further drives home an image of ignorant, criminal young black kids, parents do very little to guide their children away from that image even if its shallow imitations. Kids are growing up believing that it's cool to conducts themselves or appear criminal in nature, police struggle to tell the difference and this cannot be blamed to be fair and the kids get shot.


The parents should take as much blame for this as anyone, knowing what i know if i had a kid (especially if the kid grew up to be a 6'6 beast like me) the last thing i would do is give the kid anything that even slightly resembled a gun. Not because i think it's wrong but because i know from my experiences that in the society we live in, being my height and colour will automatically make people uneasy about their safety (an please dont try and pretend as if this is purely an america thing, ).

At the end of the day only the parents are responsible for children, i dont like to entertain that the police have any responsibility or accountability for anyone other than themselves and the bosses they work for.

Cannot be blamed for what exactly? Because if it's about shooting an innocent 12 year old then you won't have many friends.

they cant be blamed for the shooting imo

[S&W the no1Fan]

most of the parents.

not everyone is equal, not everyone has equal rights or privileges and the parents should have known that in the environment he lives in and with his background sending him out with a replica gun could get him killed.

It's also partly the 911 respondents fault and the person who made the initial 911 call. The police probably could have done better but with all the repetitive stories of black kids being armed and dangerous on the news, i'm not surprised that 2 people who wanted to leave with their lives intact decided to shoot first.

[Apollo]

-Raised in a family where parents didnt buy or encourage playing with toy guns
-Wasnt the kids gunand NOT bought by the parents
-Got it from a friend earlier as kids do, share toys.

But none of this matters or needs to be justified because this is about a 12 year old kid and we're talking about comercially available and sold over the counter goods.

Blame will be shifted, if this was an isolated incident it would be sad but nothing more would be thought of it its become an institution.

[S&W the no1Fan]

-Raised in a family where parents didnt buy or encourage playing with toy guns
-Wasnt the kids gunand NOT bought by the parents
-Got it from a friend earlier as kids do, share toys.

But none of this matters or needs to be justified because this is about a 12 year old kid and we're talking about comercially available and sold over the counter goods.

Blame will be shifted, if this was an isolated incident it would be sad but nothing more would be thought of it its become an institution.

it's sad that this is the case but it's because of this that people need to educate their kids that some their actions can result in real world consequences especially if they have a black boy. It shouldnt be like this but it is so it's better that you speak to your kids honestly about what could come their way if they are perceived as a danger. Some kids think it's all fun and games, but at the end of the day boys are getting killed because of their ignorance.

The fault has to be attributed to the parents and the child. Unfortunately black boys often arent considered children to law enforcement and the reasons are far more complex than police disliking black boys. The parents should have known this and made it clear to the child.

I also think the caller and the 911 operator should have made it clear that the gun could be fake. It's a pretty large detail to omit and could have changed the officers approach to handling the boy had they known.

[Apollo]

-Raised in a family where parents didnt buy or encourage playing with toy guns
-Wasnt the kids gunand NOT bought by the parents
-Got it from a friend earlier as kids do, share toys.

But none of this matters or needs to be justified because this is about a 12 year old kid and we're talking about comercially available and sold over the counter goods.

Blame will be shifted, if this was an isolated incident it would be sad but nothing more would be thought of it its become an institution.

it's sad that this is the case but it's because of this that people need to educate their kids that some their actions can result in real world consequences especially if they have a black boy. It shouldnt be like this but it is so it's better that you speak to your kids honestly about what could come their way if they are perceived as a danger. Some kids think it's all fun and games, but at the end of the day boys are getting killed because of their ignorance.

The fault has to be attributed to the parents and the child. Unfortunately black boys often arent considered children to law enforcement and the reasons are far more complex than police disliking black boys. The parents should have known this and made it clear to the child.

I also think the caller and the 911 operator should have made it clear that the gun could be fake. It's a pretty large detail to omit and could have changed the officers approach to handling the boy had they known.

Fundemental disagreent, i can't ever put the blame on the victims.

-Sorry kid you shouldnt have been playing of course you were going to get shot and killed the police.

-Sorry Moms even though you discouraged toy guns you should have telapathically sensed your pre teen son was going to be like all the other kids and find one and play with one.

Victim blaming is baseless at the best of times, in cases where there are clear divides or clear errors it makes no sense whatsoever.

Ignoring the institutional racism that manifests itself in countless similar cases where unarmed people are killed doesnt make it go away, thats the absolute worst approach because of instead of dealing with the problem, excessive force,police brutality,quick trigger ,botched police procedure etc and tackling it at the roots you keep it going shifting the responsibility form the law enforcement to those who wind up getting shot reaching for their wallet, or handcuffed,held down and face to the ground.






Victim blaming does'nt help anything nor does it change anything, people will continue to get killed daily with that approach.

[JordanTheGunner]

Maybe it's the police (who are supposed to be role models and protectors) who walk around aiming guns at people that tought this kid to play with the gun rather than the parents.

[S&W the no1Fan]

-Raised in a family where parents didnt buy or encourage playing with toy guns
-Wasnt the kids gunand NOT bought by the parents
-Got it from a friend earlier as kids do, share toys.

But none of this matters or needs to be justified because this is about a 12 year old kid and we're talking about comercially available and sold over the counter goods.

Blame will be shifted, if this was an isolated incident it would be sad but nothing more would be thought of it its become an institution.

it's sad that this is the case but it's because of this that people need to educate their kids that some their actions can result in real world consequences especially if they have a black boy. It shouldnt be like this but it is so it's better that you speak to your kids honestly about what could come their way if they are perceived as a danger. Some kids think it's all fun and games, but at the end of the day boys are getting killed because of their ignorance.

The fault has to be attributed to the parents and the child. Unfortunately black boys often arent considered children to law enforcement and the reasons are far more complex than police disliking black boys. The parents should have known this and made it clear to the child.

I also think the caller and the 911 operator should have made it clear that the gun could be fake. It's a pretty large detail to omit and could have changed the officers approach to handling the boy had they known.

Fundemental disagreent, i can't ever put the blame on the victims.

-Sorry kid you shouldnt have been playing of course you were going to get shot and killed the police.

-Sorry Moms even though you discouraged toy guns you should have telapathically sensed your pre teen son was going to be like all the other kids and find one and play with one.

Victim blaming is baseless at the best of times, in cases where there are clear divides or clear errors it makes no sense whatsoever.

Ignoring the institutional racism that manifests itself in countless similar cases where unarmed people are killed doesnt make it go away, thats the absolute worst approach because of instead of dealing with the problem, excessive force,police brutality,quick trigger ,botched police procedure etc and tackling it at the roots you keep it going shifting the responsibility form the law enforcement to those who wind up getting shot reaching for their wallet, or handcuffed,held down and face to the ground.






Victim blaming does'nt help anything nor does it change anything, people will continue to get killed daily with that approach.

dude this is how i see it

institutional racism is a given at the moment. I'm not saying people shouldnt protest it they definitely should that not to be contested but targeting the police only or even the police and judicial system only is the tip of the iceberg and futile.

I've seen both those videos and that you posted before and those videos shows 2 ways that institutional racism manifests itself.

The first video

It shows how media lead propaganda scares the nation into thinking that black men especially are belligerent, irrational and lacking of empathy. When you have those kinds of negative associations constantly bombarding a nation of course people will be scared. In this video the officer obviously panics, he believes the dude is about to do something, i dont think consciously the police officer discriminates against black people but subconsciously there is obviously a fear that caused an almost fight or flight reaction when he saw the driver reaching into his pocket. You see evidence of this in numerous other situations.

From security guards believing that black people are higher risk, to people being afraid of black people when they're walking the streets, on elevators or just about any public place where you come across unfamiliar or new people. Even within the black community you can see it, lets be honest most black people are more scared, more distrustful and more abrasive towards other unfamiliar black people than they are most other races (ofcourse there are exceptions but most evidence points towards this). You cannot stop police and most other people having that uneasiness through punishing reflex like reactions, it's like imprisoning someone who has a phobia for a reaction.

I think it's down to us as black people to stop trying to champion ideals that you see in a lot of rap music (i'm not just talking about the ganster shit, i'm talking the hoe's, the balling mentality, the ignorant mentality, the bad bitches and all that other shit) , to stop playing roles that enforce certain negative stereotypes, to stop idolizing criminality, unruliness, irresponsibility and ignorance and to start pushing a different image. I'm not saying all of these things should be irradiated but right now there's such a scarcity of more positive ideals within the black community that us and outsiders (they arent really outsiders but other races) see very little deviation from negative representations that people including black people both fear and see black people as very different when in fact it's not true.

We need to start putting forward people who have achieved in different ways, yes we can put forward more intelligent people as role models, but it isnt just limited to that, we should look to put forward the charitable guys, the selfless, the courageous (not in a gangster way), the responsible and so on. We need to start promoting the nuclear family, we need to start holding ourselves to better standards, that includes giving no time to the woman with 4 kids from 5 dads, the guys that has 4 kids from 5 different mums, the woman who would rather flaunt her body than her intelligence or her sweetness. The guy who would rather sell drugs than to learn sustainable skills that will allow him to get into a sustainable career. The woman, who lives on the state and child support. The unemployed guy who is completely supported by a woman with no intention of getting a job.

I'm sorry but baby mamas are too prevalent in the black community, it's very disappointing that even as black men become more successful they still have baby mamas. I'm sorry but the scenario where you have any baby mamas should never be a thing that is championed, it isnt an achievement and the thing is young boys will often see that their mum is a baby momma and they will see some of the most famous and successful men having baby mama so ofcourse they will thing 'well it was ok for my mother and the most successful people are doing it so why not. The same with girls, their mums too will be role models but they will also see that being a baby momma could also elevate you social status so ofcourse they will also choose that life. At worst they live at the standard that they've lived in their whole life anyway

Anyway coming back from that massive digression.

The second video shows institutional racism in it's second form. Police officers that consciously discriminate against know that they have a system that protects them. This reason can be blamed on the judicial system. Black men on average get longer sentences, harsher punishments etc when being convicted of the same crimes as any other group even black women. That is a statistical fact (at least in the states not too sure about the uk i havent checked). Black men have different rights when it comes to dealing with police officers compared with anyone else, very little evidence is needed to convict a black man and the privitisation of the prison system in the states has made the incarceration of people a profitable industry. I've heard of judges being paid to convict innocent people, of companies negotiating prison quotas with local governments so that a certain amount of people have to be imprisoned at a time.

When you have judges and districts needing to fulfill quotas, and with racist police officers (i'm talking about the racist ones not saying all are) knowing that they can detain a person, kill a person, falsify reports and assault people with the protection of the legal system (remember the police's primary responsibility is to deliver criminals to the courts and not to give innocent or guilty verdicts) Minoritys especially the ones portrayed as savages, belligerent, lacking of empathy, will be the ones brought in when gaps need to be filled to meet the quota.




Now i acknowledge all of this, in my mind most of it is undeniable, but even then i know that if you see a lion and you know it's a lion you dont poke it. You also make it clear to you kids and loved ones that they too shouldnt poke the lion and tell them what the consequences will be. Now maybe another lion can get away with poking a lion but we cant. What i am trying to say is that if we aren't seen as equal to law enforcement or enough of them for it to be the problem that it is today, do not expect to be treated the same. There has never been a time when i expected the police to treat me with respect when i encounter them (they stop me pretty much lol), i have auto ejecting pockets, i dont make any sudden movements, i make it clear that i have nothing on me and that i dont want to lose my life over suspicions, i make it clear that i'm not out for trouble. Why, because we dont live in an idealistic world, i know the current climate so i change my behavior accordingly and i think it is every parents duty to make their kids aware of the climate they live in no matter how wrong it is. That is one reason i blame the parents, i also have to ask why their 12 year old son is alone in a park with a toy gun. I went to the park with friends when i was younger but i never felt going there on my own (i guess if his parents are against toy guns then that may be the reason he was there; to play with it). I also did a lot of stupid things that could have gotten me killed whilst 'playing'.

As i said in my previous post some kids just feel like every situation is a good one to play in, the unlucky ones lose their life because of it.

[Apollo]

dude this is how i see it

institutional racism is a given at the moment. I'm not saying people shouldnt protest it they definitely should that not to be contested but targeting the police only or even the police and judicial system only is the tip of the iceberg and futile.

This is why Police should be targeted should be targeted and are the only vehicle for change

-The are law enforcement and as such should be held to a higher standard than the average street thug.
-Not understanding police procedure is no excuse

*The judiary, in jury trials not so much as its the jury who decides your fate, you walk into the courtrrom with a prejeduce you make your decision with a prejuduce.If people within the society hold racist thoughts which dates back to slavery, especially in former confederates.Racially neutral Laws can be set but as long as factions of the society hold racist views, conviction taes or different sentencing and conviction rates based on race for the same crime won't change.

I think it's down to us as black people to stop trying to champion ideals that you see in a lot of rap music (i'm not just talking about the ganster shit, i'm talking the hoe's, the balling mentality, the ignorant mentality, the bad bitches and all that other shit) , to stop playing roles that enforce certain negative stereotypes, to stop idolizing criminality, unruliness, irresponsibility and ignorance and to start pushing a different image. I'm not saying all of these things should be irradiated but right now there's such a scarcity of more positive ideals within the black community that us and outsiders (they arent really outsiders but other races) see very little deviation from negative representations that people including black people both fear and see black people as very different when in fact it's not true.

We need to start putting forward people who have achieved in different ways, yes we can put forward more intelligent people as role models, but it isnt just limited to that, we should look to put forward the charitable guys, the selfless, the courageous (not in a gangster way), the responsible and so on. We need to start promoting the nuclear family, we need to start holding ourselves to better standards, that includes giving no time to the woman with 4 kids from 5 dads, the guys that has 4 kids from 5 different mums, the woman who would rather flaunt her body than her intelligence or her sweetness. The guy who would rather sell drugs than to learn sustainable skills that will allow him to get into a sustainable career. The woman, who lives on the state and child support. The unemployed guy who is completely supported by a woman with no intention of getting a job.

The biggest problem with this, is these are the same sentiments someone who discriminated against entire races would share, and the reason this has no potential for change is.

We factually know that
-Not every black person likes rap
-Not every black person is uneducated
-Not every black person leaves his family etc etc
-There are black scientists,lawyers,presidents whatever the fc*ck proffession

So essesitially what we are saying is that because a certain subculture exists, in specific underfunded areas of that country which obviously doesnt represent the ideals of the whole, its justifiyable or understandable at the very least when people who produce more Melanin get shot and killed unarmed.

All of this boils down to Policing, social conflicts arent going to just dissapear, but thats not the issue here and is of little import.

The Police,some, who are instructed and are paid to protect and serve in an ever increasing police state are abusing powers,using excessive foce,and are not policing well. That is the only issue of import in any of these cases. A discussion of social cultures can drag on for days without addressing anything as they have for decades but that has nothing to do with the government funded protection force.

The 12 year old kid, to those blaming the kid, or the parent - think about in this way as it was an execution
-In an empty area!The police drive up, not to the road or any other place the can and are required to tell him to STOP or heres a great one PUT THE GUN DOWN, out of all the location they drive up to the sidewalk stop right in front of the kid and without hestiating shoot.People view it from the point of the police driving up to him and then acting but ignore the fact that the POLICE DROVE UP ON HIM,doing their best impression of a driveby shooting, that is not policing. Had the kid had hostages or actually threatening to kill anybody he would still be alive as the cops would have to adhere to actuall police procedure gather information and act accordingly- can't blame the victim, funnily enough the police oficer was declared unfit for duty two years prior, again bad policing..

The wallet video, again inept policing. Instead of telling him to step away from the vehicle or get closer he says show my your license as the man goes to get it he shoot 4 times, STILL shooting when hands are in the air. BAD, inept policing

The third is just an execution and nothing more needs to be said, managed to convice the jury he thought he was shooting a taser, but bad policing.

But as you can see the root of this comes from horrible police work, its not asking a lot from police to actually do police work. Thats the issue all those could have been avoided not if the victims didnt have melainin but if the Police had actually done police work. This is why there's anger,this is why they are protests,this is why the situation is bad and this is why victim blaming doesnt help the situation because its a general lack of intellegence and a general ineptitude from the police force which far excedes all other prevalent factors in any of the circumstances.Being harrased and profiled based on race, whatever it happens, being stopped ,being suspected being investigated this is routine and actually happens to be policing understanding the social climate and stereotypical views held by many, but being shamlessly killed that is unacceptable and reckless policing, no two ways about it.

[DiamondGooner]

when you believe a situation is so grave that you need to shoot someone, shooting to kill is the only logical choice. Shooting any other area is stupid and irrational once you've already made the decision that the situation requires that kind of force.

TBF this is correct, in an ideal world we can all be John Wayne and pick and choose where to shoot.
The reality is against a dangerous individual who you've felt the need to shoot, doing the above could get you killed.

The issue in the videos I've seen here is that the Police have not even bothered engaging with the individuals before choosing to fire.

In the case of the 12 year old they chose to pull up right in front of him initiating a shoot or die scenario, they should have pulled up at distance, used the car as cover whilst giving instructions to the boy to drop the gun, they could see he was a minor ffs.

The store one is just plainly fked up, the guy was grocery shopping lol and they just blitzkrieged his ass.

I think we can all agree that our gun laws in the UK are far superior, we don't have a gun culture so it means the police are not used to psyching themselves up for a kill or be killed scenario at the drop of a hat.
Even the murder of Lee Rigby, the police were dealing with armed religious zealots and still gave them a chance to disarm, even run at them before opening fire.

[22-0]

^ it was pretty obvious it could of been avoided. heck they could also see the gun clearly on the ground.

just an execution.