Gay Marriage

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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Maradonna » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:13 pm

UFGN wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
UFGN wrote:Religion has always been used as a tool by people and organisations to oppress other people.

That's why its important to discredit the religious objections. Take away the tools, or the justification, and you ultimately destroy the basis for discrimination.

you dont descredit religion, you discredit the fool who thinks that religion has anything to do with the subject matter at all.


You can't separate religion from its holy text. The bible condemns gays. No question about it.

the bible also says that jesus was born in belen, and had no brothers or sisters, and did not got married.
if the text is wrong, then the text is wrong.
religion has nothing to do with the text.
probably only 5% of christians have an sophisticated understanding of what the bible is and how it should be readed.
to suggest that the text is the reason why christians are against gays is simple false.
Christians in general are against homosexuality because of victorian tradition more than because of what christianity is.


The bible is wrong because God doesn't exist and Christianity is a steaming vat of bollocks. That is completely irrelevant to whether you condemn the religion or the bigoted individual.

The point is the bigot uses the religion and it's text to discriminate against gays.

i thought that we were having an intelligent conversation here.
I was wrong.


The whole problem here is you not understanding what I said in the first place about discrediting religious argument, so please don't try to patronise me sunshine.

im not trying to patronise you.
you are saying that religion is used to condome homsexual conducts.
just like science, just like culture, just like morals.
its not about religion, its about embrasing otherty.
If a religious guy tells you that you are wrong because you are gay, that is just laughable.
Its like a guy meassuring the size of ones head to determine criminality.
we are on the XXI century, that sort of simplistic way of looking at religion should not be allowed.
who cares what the pope has to say about gay conducts, Secular thinking is going to made his way either the pope like it or not.
Religion is not institutions, is not a canonical text. religion is just a lenguage.


people give religion too much credit, i think that is my point.


You think that's your point? Well I'm glad you have a vague idea what it is. You don't debate , you just go off on your own tangent about irrelevant issues, then accuse others of not being as intelligent as you. Its boring, you're boring and I cant invest.

I'm out.

ok, nice talking to you, very nutritious as usual.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Royal Gooner » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:27 pm

Don't worry, I gave up trying to have intelligent conversations with him ages ago.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby UFGN » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:34 pm

Royal Gooner wrote:Don't worry, I gave up trying to have intelligent conversations with him ages ago.


Ah bless, the neo-fascist has an opinion as well
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Royal Gooner » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:35 pm

UFGN wrote:
Royal Gooner wrote:Don't worry, I gave up trying to have intelligent conversations with him ages ago.


Ah bless, the neo-fascist has an opinion as well


I don't go around calling people names, something you seem to love doing.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby UFGN » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:38 pm

Royal Gooner wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Royal Gooner wrote:Don't worry, I gave up trying to have intelligent conversations with him ages ago.


Ah bless, the neo-fascist has an opinion as well


I don't go around calling people names, something you seem to love doing.


I'm referring to your politics and disgusting opinions, not calling you names.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Royal Gooner » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:40 pm

UFGN wrote:
Royal Gooner wrote:
UFGN wrote:
Royal Gooner wrote:Don't worry, I gave up trying to have intelligent conversations with him ages ago.


Ah bless, the neo-fascist has an opinion as well


I don't go around calling people names, something you seem to love doing.


I'm referring to your politics and disgusting opinions, not calling you names.


Uh-huh. Just keeps proving my point.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby jmiles10 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:53 pm

People do take religion seriously. Look at ISIS.

If you brought up from a kid brainwashed that gay is wrong it's hard to change that.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby LMAO » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:21 am

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but all of this discrimination in America (from slavery to racial discrimination to race mixing to gay marriage) comes directly from interpretations of the Bible. Here, people have used the Bible—and continue to do so—to justify their bigotry for all the aforementioned discriminations, as well as others not mentioned. It has nothing to do with tribal traditions or any of that stuff. When you use your holy book, your god, and Christianity to justify an action, it's most definitely concerning religion. It's about religion, it's always been about religion, and it will continue to be about religion until the last religious person ceases to exist in America.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Maradonna » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:10 am

Brandon wrote:I can't speak for the rest of the world, but all of this discrimination in America (from slavery to racial discrimination to race mixing to gay marriage) comes directly from interpretations of the Bible. Here, people have used the Bible—and continue to do so—to justify their bigotry for all the aforementioned discriminations, as well as others not mentioned. It has nothing to do with tribal traditions or any of that stuff. When you use your holy book, your god, and Christianity to justify an action, it's most definitely concerning religion. It's about religion, it's always been about religion, and it will continue to be about religion until the last religious person ceases to exist in America.

no, i can justify pederasty with anthropology, that does not make anthropology sick, im the one that is sick.



and btw this phrase: and it will continue to be about religion until the last religious person ceases to exist in America
is fascist.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Va-Va-Voom » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:19 am

Yes but people don't take anthropology as the so called word of God like they do from religious scriptures - it's not a religion.

There is no holy text of anthropology that says such and such is wrong or forbidden; there are many people who will strictly adhere to anything their religion dictates - be it discriminatory or otherwise.

Anthropology is based on the studies humans have carried out, religion is based on God's will. Big difference.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Maradonna » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:26 am

Va-Va-Voom wrote:Yes but people don't take anthropology as the so called word of God like they do from religious scriptures - it's not a religion.

science was used to torture homosexuals in the 60s, just like Isis tortures infidels.
Va-Va-Voom wrote:There is no holy text of anthropology that says such and such is wrong or forbidden; there are many people who will strictly adhere to anything their religion dictates - be it discriminatory or otherwise.

social darwinism worked as a holy text for the illumination and positives in early XX century.
6 million people were tortured and killed during hitler regime, and it was not in the name of any religion, it was in the name of science.
they are languages.
both science and religion.
religion, like science is not either good or bad, its just a tool.

guns are not bad, people who shots to other humans are the bad ones.


Va-Va-Voom wrote:Anthropology is based on the studies humans have carried out.

just 50 years ago we were electroshocking homosexuals, in the name of science.

we are, still today, mutilating intersexual babies, just to fit a social genre request.
science can be as usefull as religion.

as i said, the antinatura discorse has much more weight than the anti moral one.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby VCC » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:17 am

Brandon wrote:I can't speak for the rest of the world, but all of this discrimination in America (from slavery to racial discrimination to race mixing to gay marriage) comes directly from interpretations of the Bible. Here, people have used the Bible—and continue to do so—to justify their bigotry for all the aforementioned discriminations, as well as others not mentioned. It has nothing to do with tribal traditions or any of that stuff. When you use your holy book, your god, and Christianity to justify an action, it's most definitely concerning religion. It's about religion, it's always been about religion, and it will continue to be about religion until the last religious person ceases to exist in America.

just to put my two cents worth


good post for what its worth I think America is the f***ing last country to follow........... went from slavery to civil war......... to trying to kill off another race in the Indians because they were in the way of their f***ing railroad.............................to civil rights ..............................how many blacks died in the civil war the world wars and still had little rights ....................then there was Veitnam where over 70% of US casualties were black Americans if I remember correctly but still no equal rights and we go on to today where there still seems a shoot first ask questions later for black Americans as far as policing goes ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;I am all for gay marriage I live in a country that has that we also gave women the vote being the first country to do so.........................as far as Americans calling any kettle black when you actually finish any war you f***ing start I may start listening...............................and even better stop arming the people you then turn against later to fight. RANT OVER GAY MARRIAGE OK BY ME ITS AMERICANS I AM OVER SORT YOUR OWN SHIT OUT!
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Angelito » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:03 am

I like the statement that Religion is just a language.

Except somebody needs to add that it's an outdated language that has been largely misinterpreted and is vague from the word go. Simplicity is the ideal. Not everybody is a Theologian/Philosopher to be able to dissect religion, just like not everyone is a scientist to be able to understand concepts clearly and precisely.

Journalistic writing is specifically aimed at being informal, simple, and specific. It's so because they want every common person, whether a Ph.D on a topic of Linguistics, or a common literate with no formal training to understand and be able to absorb the message as it's put originally. At least, that is the idea.

Religious scriptures aren't so and were held by a majority of controlling forces in the past. You needed to have a certain position to access those texts before Gutenberg arrived. Since then, the between-the-line, implied meaning has been replaced by straight, actual meaning. This has resulted in catastrophe. If the Catholic Church weren't so intent in exerting its political influence in Europa, or being the brokers between God and her children, perhaps - we'd have a better understanding, iteration, and analysis of the text.

The trials of witches and pagans are classic examples of that era.


Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
Brandon wrote:
Callum wrote:I just don't get why people give a shit so much. How does two blokes getting married affect your life in any negative way?

f***ing old, bigoted c*nts


This is why I'm so proud of the Founding Fathers for having the foresight to know that separation of church and state would be best for America. Can't believe these f***ers are still trying to put their outdated holy book in secular law. f**k your marriage ideals because marriage =/= Christian values, and marriage was a thing wayyyyy before religion came about. Also, I love how they get so riled up about little things like gay marriage when they don't have a problem themselves eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabric clothing. Bunch of cherrypicking asswipes.

Good thing their influence is dwindling by the day. First the Confederate flag. Then Obamacare. Now gay marriage. It's certainly been a week of utter fails for them. When will they learn that they're fighting a losing battle?

it is not about religion, its about tribal tradition.
Its about fearing what it is unknown.
This is great on so many levels because it was a very conservative supreme court that voted for it.
The Reagan/Nixon ideology that poisoned the south is finally being cleaned.
Next elections are critical.
As i always said to the americans that i know.
"you hold the destiny of the entire planet when you vote for president" if you vote "correctly" it impacts on the entire world population.
hopefully hillary gets elected.
it would be terrible to have another bush for 4 years again.
f**k republicans
f**k them hard.



Fearing what is unknown is probably part of why religions were created. So yes, it is definitely about religion, because if it didn’t have that specific part in Leviticus we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

just no,
if you wanna know about what religion is and how religion works you dont go and ask to a neuroscientist (i know you are a Harris lover) you go to Harvard divinity school.



You're not even making sense, this has nothing to do with that. :dizzy:

yes it does, you put canonical text as the major force of why gay people where persecuted.
when you ignore that even some christian sects were practicising same sex marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphopoiesis
by blaming persecution on religion we are just ignoring reality.
reality is that, as religion justifys hate, also science does:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

again, blaming religion on why same sex marrage was not legal in the USA is a very unsophisticated way of analizing the situation, is the easy way out.
The manual was 130 pages long and listed 106 mental disorders.[14] These included several categories of "personality disturbance", generally distinguished from "neurosis" (nervousness, egodystonic).[15] In 1952, the APA listed homosexuality in the DSM as a sociopathic personality disturbance. Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals, a large-scale 1962 study of homosexuality, was used to justify inclusion of the disorder as a supposed pathological hidden fear of the opposite sex caused by traumatic parent–child relationships. This view was widely influential in the medical profession.

you dont see anyone claiming science is the reason why homosexuals where persecuted.

Religion is not the enemy.
neither is science. they are just lenguages to describe the human experience.



You're just making a bunch of assumptions that are all wrong based off a sentence or two. My point is that there are other factors, but to say that religion isn't one of them is ignorant.

ignorant is taking a cannonical text that was written 2000 years ago and take it literally.
you are just as ignorant as a fundamentalist.


Instead of calling him ignorant, or calling anybody foolish for not empathizing with your point-of-view, you could go the extra mile to explain your conceptual standpoint.

You'e studied Philosophy. It's your DUTY not to judge people and clarify when people make mistakes or are misinformed. Not that anybody is misinformed here, but calling names and calling the other ignorant for not patronizing you is being dogmatic you know...

Jus sayin'


Brandon wrote:I can't speak for the rest of the world, but all of this discrimination in America (from slavery to racial discrimination to race mixing to gay marriage) comes directly from interpretations of the Bible. Here, people have used the Bible—and continue to do so—to justify their bigotry for all the aforementioned discriminations, as well as others not mentioned. It has nothing to do with tribal traditions or any of that stuff. When you use your holy book, your god, and Christianity to justify an action, it's most definitely concerning religion. It's about religion, it's always been about religion, and it will continue to be about religion until the last religious person ceases to exist in America.


For me, religion fails because it failed to put its message across, properly, adequately, astutely, and rationally.

Humans have always been elitist snobs. Whether it was back when the Earth was flat or anti-Heliocentrism, or the notion of, "Where is everybody?" that is doing its rounds today. Alternatively, since we've brought up Anthropology, there is a certain concept of Ethnocentricism.

I can understand Mara's stance that the shooter is the criminal and not the gun, but when the gun is so vague, naive, and all-pervading and teaches you to act in a notion that is neither clear nor precise, for most people in the world, you have to ask whether the shooter is just under the spell of ignorance, or is the gun so powerful that it directs you to act in a certain way because, acc. to many philosophers, religion is another tool of propaganda to control and manipulate people.

Any form of belief dies after the propounder dies. Sad reality. The left-behinds are merely misinterpreted by the followers and these misinterpreted words of the original faith-carrier becomes the gospel of truth.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby Maradonna » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:56 pm

Angelito wrote:I like the statement that Religion is just a language.

Except somebody needs to add that it's an outdated language that has been largely misinterpreted and is vague from the word go. Simplicity is the ideal. Not everybody is a Theologian/Philosopher to be able to dissect religion, just like not everyone is a scientist to be able to understand concepts clearly and precisely.

Journalistic writing is specifically aimed at being informal, simple, and specific. It's so because they want every common person, whether a Ph.D on a topic of Linguistics, or a common literate with no formal training to understand and be able to absorb the message as it's put originally. At least, that is the idea.

Religious scriptures aren't so and were held by a majority of controlling forces in the past. You needed to have a certain position to access those texts before Gutenberg arrived. Since then, the between-the-line, implied meaning has been replaced by straight, actual meaning. This has resulted in catastrophe. If the Catholic Church weren't so intent in exerting its political influence in Europa, or being the brokers between God and her children, perhaps - we'd have a better understanding, iteration, and analysis of the text.

The trials of witches and pagans are classic examples of that era.


Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
StLGooner wrote:
Maradonaitis wrote:
Brandon wrote:
Callum wrote:I just don't get why people give a shit so much. How does two blokes getting married affect your life in any negative way?

f***ing old, bigoted c*nts


This is why I'm so proud of the Founding Fathers for having the foresight to know that separation of church and state would be best for America. Can't believe these f***ers are still trying to put their outdated holy book in secular law. f**k your marriage ideals because marriage =/= Christian values, and marriage was a thing wayyyyy before religion came about. Also, I love how they get so riled up about little things like gay marriage when they don't have a problem themselves eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabric clothing. Bunch of cherrypicking asswipes.

Good thing their influence is dwindling by the day. First the Confederate flag. Then Obamacare. Now gay marriage. It's certainly been a week of utter fails for them. When will they learn that they're fighting a losing battle?

it is not about religion, its about tribal tradition.
Its about fearing what it is unknown.
This is great on so many levels because it was a very conservative supreme court that voted for it.
The Reagan/Nixon ideology that poisoned the south is finally being cleaned.
Next elections are critical.
As i always said to the americans that i know.
"you hold the destiny of the entire planet when you vote for president" if you vote "correctly" it impacts on the entire world population.
hopefully hillary gets elected.
it would be terrible to have another bush for 4 years again.
f**k republicans
f**k them hard.



Fearing what is unknown is probably part of why religions were created. So yes, it is definitely about religion, because if it didn’t have that specific part in Leviticus we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

just no,
if you wanna know about what religion is and how religion works you dont go and ask to a neuroscientist (i know you are a Harris lover) you go to Harvard divinity school.



You're not even making sense, this has nothing to do with that. :dizzy:

yes it does, you put canonical text as the major force of why gay people where persecuted.
when you ignore that even some christian sects were practicising same sex marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphopoiesis
by blaming persecution on religion we are just ignoring reality.
reality is that, as religion justifys hate, also science does:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

again, blaming religion on why same sex marrage was not legal in the USA is a very unsophisticated way of analizing the situation, is the easy way out.
The manual was 130 pages long and listed 106 mental disorders.[14] These included several categories of "personality disturbance", generally distinguished from "neurosis" (nervousness, egodystonic).[15] In 1952, the APA listed homosexuality in the DSM as a sociopathic personality disturbance. Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals, a large-scale 1962 study of homosexuality, was used to justify inclusion of the disorder as a supposed pathological hidden fear of the opposite sex caused by traumatic parent–child relationships. This view was widely influential in the medical profession.

you dont see anyone claiming science is the reason why homosexuals where persecuted.

Religion is not the enemy.
neither is science. they are just lenguages to describe the human experience.



You're just making a bunch of assumptions that are all wrong based off a sentence or two. My point is that there are other factors, but to say that religion isn't one of them is ignorant.

ignorant is taking a cannonical text that was written 2000 years ago and take it literally.
you are just as ignorant as a fundamentalist.


Instead of calling him ignorant, or calling anybody foolish for not empathizing with your point-of-view, you could go the extra mile to explain your conceptual standpoint.

You'e studied Philosophy. It's your DUTY not to judge people and clarify when people make mistakes or are misinformed. Not that anybody is misinformed here, but calling names and calling the other ignorant for not patronizing you is being dogmatic you know...

Jus sayin'


Brandon wrote:I can't speak for the rest of the world, but all of this discrimination in America (from slavery to racial discrimination to race mixing to gay marriage) comes directly from interpretations of the Bible. Here, people have used the Bible—and continue to do so—to justify their bigotry for all the aforementioned discriminations, as well as others not mentioned. It has nothing to do with tribal traditions or any of that stuff. When you use your holy book, your god, and Christianity to justify an action, it's most definitely concerning religion. It's about religion, it's always been about religion, and it will continue to be about religion until the last religious person ceases to exist in America.


For me, religion fails because it failed to put its message across, properly, adequately, astutely, and rationally.

Humans have always been elitist snobs. Whether it was back when the Earth was flat or anti-Heliocentrism, or the notion of, "Where is everybody?" that is doing its rounds today. Alternatively, since we've brought up Anthropology, there is a certain concept of Ethnocentricism.

I can understand Mara's stance that the shooter is the criminal and not the gun, but when the gun is so vague, naive, and all-pervading and teaches you to act in a notion that is neither clear nor precise, for most people in the world, you have to ask whether the shooter is just under the spell of ignorance, or is the gun so powerful that it directs you to act in a certain way because, acc. to many philosophers, religion is another tool of propaganda to control and manipulate people.

Any form of belief dies after the propounder dies. Sad reality. The left-behinds are merely misinterpreted by the followers and these misinterpreted words of the original faith-carrier becomes the gospel of truth.

science is also neither clear or precise, science also teach us to act on very lose concepts that we need to respect.


regarding ignorance of the shooter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoranti ... on_excusat

regarding religion and propaganda:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_of_silence
and much simple:
http://masscommtheory.com/theory-overvi ... f-silence/

i just give u links because i cant explain with my poor english the entire thing. i know that you are very curious and you are following the light of knowledge like most of us, i trust that you would read everything that i quote.


it was not my intention to call him ignorant, he used that word and i explain why the position that he is taking is ignorant
good post angelito, much more robust than the last one that you did on the topic, less words and much more content.
and in retrospective, a much more interesting point of view, you last post was very unsophisticated, this one is much more interesting.
and sorry if sometimes my posts are too direct and i come out like a cocky or an asshole, sometimes i lose patience with ignorance and fascist.
and sometimes its just the lenguage barrier.

and btw,

Not everybody is a Theologian/Philosopher to be able to dissect religion, just like not everyone is a scientist to be able to understand concepts clearly and precisely.

religion is a topic that invites people to talk about it. it is interesting, its very relevant, and its very "easy" to put an opinion out there.
Just like politics,
problem is that most of the time you have very ignorant people, like Sam Harris, who talk about what they dont understand.
if i want to know about religion, i go to harvard divinity school, i go to a religion schoolar, not to a neuroscientist.
and i have a gift for u buddy:



Dr. patinga rulez. He is working in that line that you showed interst, he is trying to made people from the science/secular atheist side to reconcile with the idea of divinity from a christian point of view. He is working there, in the frontier.
Very intersting (not really my thing, but very very cool to hear).
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Re: Gay Marriage

Postby UFGN » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:54 pm

Lots of stars and stripes at LONDON pride today

Im here

Im queer

And im drinking beer
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