American Politics

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Re: American Politics

Postby 22-0 » Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:25 pm

Funny how some people think weaponizing the courts to go after your politics rivals over petty shit isnt gonna backfire.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Jedi » Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:55 pm

22-0 wrote:Funny how some people think weaponizing the courts to go after your politics rivals over petty shit isnt gonna backfire.


How are the courts being weaponized? Which part of the process do you think was done inappropriately? Do you even understand how the US legal system works?

Or did you just listen to some r***rd who swallows buckets of Trumps cum on the daily saying how he's being "prosecuted for political reasons" and how it's a "witch hunt" or some other buzzword?

I'd bet my life savings you don't even know the actual charges.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:17 pm

22-0 wrote:Funny how some people think weaponizing the courts to go after your politics rivals over petty shit isnt gonna backfire.


Trump has spent his whole adult life in court

Because he's a fuckin crook.

Why is it any different now? He's one of the most litigious and also one of the most sued people in American history. He's a snake oil salesman. This is Trump, this is his life. You think because he's served as president, he should now, after a lifetime of litigation, suddenly be bulletproof in court? He'd love that.
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Re: American Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:00 pm

There isn’t any doubt the courts are being used for political means in the US.
Denial of such is just plain stupid at this point.
It has backfired so far, but in the process destroyed the confidence in govt.
The Democrats in the US are truly the most corrupt political party anywhere.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Jedi » Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:22 pm

jayramfootball wrote:There isn’t any doubt the courts are being used for political means in the US.
Denial of such is just plain stupid at this point.
It has backfired so far, but in the process destroyed the confidence in govt.
The Democrats in the US are truly the most corrupt political party anywhere.


Jayram, what is the purpose of posts like these?

No argument is presented that can be contented with.

You just state your beliefs and proclaim they are undeniable.

Is this supposed to change anyone's mind? Is it supposed to ridicule everyone who disagrees with you?

What's your goal?
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Re: American Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:32 pm

Jedi wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:There isn’t any doubt the courts are being used for political means in the US.
Denial of such is just plain stupid at this point.
It has backfired so far, but in the process destroyed the confidence in govt.
The Democrats in the US are truly the most corrupt political party anywhere.


Jayram, what is the purpose of posts like these?

No argument is presented that can be contented with.

You just state your beliefs and proclaim they are undeniable.

Is this supposed to change anyone's mind? Is it supposed to ridicule everyone who disagrees with you?

What's your goal?


I am assuming that people are aware of the actual charges and therefore know they are total BS and understand the level of political weaponisation and election interference going on.

The American people know too, which is why Trump is surging in the polls. The way it looks is that Trump is actually going to be elected again and if he is, it’s the Democrats who will have enabled it through sheer corruption of the political system.

It’s not even about Trump, which is your fixation. Any reasonable person is appalled at the misuse of the judicial system.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Jedi » Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:58 pm

I am fully aware of all the charges, but I don't "know they are BS" at all. Your other two claims which are "political weaponization" and "election interference," I assume stem from the idea that the charges are bogus, because if they aren't then they should naturally be pursued. So let's focus on the validity of the charges.

Do you think all of them are total bullshit? I don't feel strongly about the Hush money case in New York and I haven't followed the Civil lawsuit either, but I'm fine with defending the rest.

- Florida classified documents case

- Election Interference case

- Fulton County case

So which one of these do you find is "total BS," and so egregious that it is showing corruption and should be thrown out even before we get to the discovery process and evidence is presented?

Feel free to pick one and I'm willing to go in-depth about it if you are.
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Re: American Politics

Postby theHotHead » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:11 am

Jedi wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Only 3 presidents have been impeached in history and Donald Trump is the only President to have been impeached TWICE.

What did he do that was so bad it warranted impeaching ??

Look through lists of US Political scandals and tell me Trump being impeached was legit.


Hey, let's not minimize his achievements. The impeachments are old news.

He is the first president in the history of the country to be criminally indicted in 4 different states.

4 times indicted, with 91 felony charges spanning over 4 states— Florida, New York, Georgia, and Maryland (Washington, D.C).

And you don't think none of this is simple politicised bullshit ?

Anyone would think Trump was going on like Al Capone or something. There have been far worse presidents than Trump, Trump is a choirboy compared to them

Your prejudice/bias knows no bounds Jedi, seriously.
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Re: American Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:27 am

Let’s start with the Florida documents case before discussing the others.

We know Trump held classified documents in his home and we can be pretty sure he shared them with someone in his home.

So sure, he can be indicted.

Why has he been, though? What is the motivation?
Why did a swat team roll up at his house?

Why was Joe Biden not indicted? Why was Hillary Clinton not indicted especially after she destroyed evidence?

Which other Presidents have taken documents for their presidential library or for personal record after they left office that would be deemed as classified? How long did it take for reviews of documents to determine which they could keep and which had to be given up?

Justice and presidential record keeping processes should be equally applied under the law, so for this particular indictment not to be political in nature to specifically stop Trump, the argument for why it’s different needs to be water tight. You have an uphill battle to argue your case here and let’s be clear, it’s not an argument to show that Trump broke a law… looks like he did.

Tell me why it’s different for Trump.
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Re: American Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:45 am

theHotHead wrote:
Jedi wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Only 3 presidents have been impeached in history and Donald Trump is the only President to have been impeached TWICE.

What did he do that was so bad it warranted impeaching ??

Look through lists of US Political scandals and tell me Trump being impeached was legit.


Hey, let's not minimize his achievements. The impeachments are old news.

He is the first president in the history of the country to be criminally indicted in 4 different states.

4 times indicted, with 91 felony charges spanning over 4 states— Florida, New York, Georgia, and Maryland (Washington, D.C).

And you don't think none of this is simple politicised bullshit ?

Anyone would think Trump was going on like Al Capone or something. There have been far worse presidents than Trump, Trump is a choirboy compared to them

Your prejudice/bias knows no bounds Jedi, seriously.


The Georgia case is one of the most ridiculous farces ever witnessed. F****** RICO charges lol. Designed to take down the mob.
If it wasn’t so outrageous it would be funny.
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Re: American Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:51 am

theHotHead wrote:
Jedi wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Only 3 presidents have been impeached in history and Donald Trump is the only President to have been impeached TWICE.

What did he do that was so bad it warranted impeaching ??

Look through lists of US Political scandals and tell me Trump being impeached was legit.


Hey, let's not minimize his achievements. The impeachments are old news.

He is the first president in the history of the country to be criminally indicted in 4 different states.

4 times indicted, with 91 felony charges spanning over 4 states— Florida, New York, Georgia, and Maryland (Washington, D.C).

And you don't think none of this is simple politicised bullshit ?

Anyone would think Trump was going on like Al Capone or something. There have been far worse presidents than Trump, Trump is a choirboy compared to them

Your prejudice/bias knows no bounds Jedi, seriously.


The impeachments are almost a bigger joke than the indictments.

Impeached for actually doing his job as the top law enforcement official in the land. Asking for evidence of Biden bribery from Zelensky , with the clearest reason for asking that could ever be provided.

Then the ‘insurrection’ , which we now know was nothing of the sort - although it was clear at the time it was nothing of the sort. The Democrats propaganda machine went into full overdrive, however.

The Democrats over the last few years have single handedly destroyed the US political system that survived for over 200 years.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:46 am

theHotHead wrote:
Jedi wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Only 3 presidents have been impeached in history and Donald Trump is the only President to have been impeached TWICE.

What did he do that was so bad it warranted impeaching ??

Look through lists of US Political scandals and tell me Trump being impeached was legit.


Hey, let's not minimize his achievements. The impeachments are old news.

He is the first president in the history of the country to be criminally indicted in 4 different states.

4 times indicted, with 91 felony charges spanning over 4 states— Florida, New York, Georgia, and Maryland (Washington, D.C).

And you don't think none of this is simple politicised bullshit ?

Anyone would think Trump was going on like Al Capone or something. There have been far worse presidents than Trump, Trump is a choirboy compared to them

Your prejudice/bias knows no bounds Jedi, seriously.


Why do find it so surprising that Trump is in court facing charges and civil suits? It's been his entire life to date, in and out of court constantly for decades. He just took a brief pause for politics and this is his life returning to normal. He's been involved in more court cases than Rumpole of the fkin Bailey.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Jedi » Tue Nov 21, 2023 8:01 pm

jayramfootball wrote:Let’s start with the Florida documents case before discussing the others.

We know Trump held classified documents in his home and we can be pretty sure he shared them with someone in his home.

So sure, he can be indicted.

Why has he been, though? What is the motivation?
Why did a swat team roll up at his house?

Why was Joe Biden not indicted? Why was Hillary Clinton not indicted especially after she destroyed evidence?

First of all, glad that you agree that he can be indicted. So we've established that.

But why wasn't Biden indicted?

Biden's behavior:
Between November 2022 and January 2023, approximately 25 to 30 classified government documents were discovered by President Joe Biden's attorneys in his former office at the Penn Biden Center in Washington, D.C., and in his personal residence in Wilmington, Delaware, dating to his time in the Senate and his vice presidency in the Obama administration.

On November 2, 2022, Biden's attorneys discovered the first set of classified documents in a locked closet at the Penn Biden Center; they reported them that day to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), which retrieved them the next day. The classified documents included intelligence material and briefing memos on Ukraine, Iran and the United Kingdom. In coordination with the Justice Department (DOJ), Biden's attorneys discovered a second set of documents at Biden's home on December 20, followed by several more on January 9 and January 12, 2023. Biden's personal attorney said on January 21 that the Justice Department discovered six items containing classification markings during a consensual search of his home the previous day, some of which dated to his tenure in the Senate; investigators also seized some of Biden's handwritten notes from his vice presidency

You are completely right that other officials, including Biden, keeping classified information isn't novel, but the keyword here is, cooperation, cooperation, and more cooperation. This will be very important once we get to Trump.

Let's compare this to the Trump case:
Trump was indicted in June 2023 by a federal grand jury in Miami for taking classified national defense documents from the White House after he left office and resisting the government’s attempts to retrieve the materials. Both Trump and his aide Walt Nauta have pleaded not guilty.

On July 27, the special counsel charged Trump with three new counts, including one additional count of willful retention of national defense information. Nauta was also charged on two new counts. A third defendant, Carlos de Oliveira, was added to the case and charged with four counts, including being added to the obstruction conspiracy charged in the original indictment.


Key differences:

Biden has said he was surprised to learn he had classified information in his possession. Trump has said on social media, without providing evidence, that he declassified the records, though his attorneys have declined to repeat that assertion in court filings.

Legal experts say there are stark contrasts between the two cases.

In Trump's case, the National Archives tried for more than a year after Trump left office to retrieve all of the records he retained, without success. When Trump finally returned 15 boxes of documents in January 2022, Archives officials discovered they contained classified materials.

The matter was referred to the Justice Department, which issued a grand jury subpoena last May seeking the return of all classified records. Investigators then visited Trump's home, where his attorneys handed over more material and asserted there were no more documents on the premises.That turned out to be false.

Additional evidence collected by the FBI, including surveillance footage from the Mar-a-Lago estate, prompted agents to seek court approval to execute a search warrant on Aug. 8 amid concerns over possible obstruction.

The FBI recovered an additional 13,000 documents, about 100 of which were marked as classified.


The key issue here isn't the classified documents themselves, it is the obstruction aspect and the refusal to cooperate with NARA.

Then the refusal to cooperate with the Justice Department and his lawyers lying that they gave back all the classified material.

Can you acknowledge the differences in these two cases?
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Re: American Politics

Postby theHotHead » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:30 pm

UFGN wrote:
theHotHead wrote:
Jedi wrote:
theHotHead wrote:Only 3 presidents have been impeached in history and Donald Trump is the only President to have been impeached TWICE.

What did he do that was so bad it warranted impeaching ??

Look through lists of US Political scandals and tell me Trump being impeached was legit.


Hey, let's not minimize his achievements. The impeachments are old news.

He is the first president in the history of the country to be criminally indicted in 4 different states.

4 times indicted, with 91 felony charges spanning over 4 states— Florida, New York, Georgia, and Maryland (Washington, D.C).

And you don't think none of this is simple politicised bullshit ?

Anyone would think Trump was going on like Al Capone or something. There have been far worse presidents than Trump, Trump is a choirboy compared to them

Your prejudice/bias knows no bounds Jedi, seriously.


Why do find it so surprising that Trump is in court facing charges and civil suits? It's been his entire life to date, in and out of court constantly for decades. He just took a brief pause for politics and this is his life returning to normal. He's been involved in more court cases than Rumpole of the fkin Bailey.


I'm not surprised, that is the nature of the beast.

But like I and Jayram are saying, why is the law supposedly being applied to Trump and to nobody else ?!!! If you can't see the double standards I can't help you. The answer is simple, its politicised bullshit.
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Re: American Politics

Postby jayramfootball » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:55 pm

Jedi wrote:
jayramfootball wrote:Let’s start with the Florida documents case before discussing the others.

We know Trump held classified documents in his home and we can be pretty sure he shared them with someone in his home.

So sure, he can be indicted.

Why has he been, though? What is the motivation?
Why did a swat team roll up at his house?

Why was Joe Biden not indicted? Why was Hillary Clinton not indicted especially after she destroyed evidence?

First of all, glad that you agree that he can be indicted. So we've established that.

But why wasn't Biden indicted?

Biden's behavior:
Between November 2022 and January 2023, approximately 25 to 30 classified government documents were discovered by President Joe Biden's attorneys in his former office at the Penn Biden Center in Washington, D.C., and in his personal residence in Wilmington, Delaware, dating to his time in the Senate and his vice presidency in the Obama administration.

On November 2, 2022, Biden's attorneys discovered the first set of classified documents in a locked closet at the Penn Biden Center; they reported them that day to the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), which retrieved them the next day. The classified documents included intelligence material and briefing memos on Ukraine, Iran and the United Kingdom. In coordination with the Justice Department (DOJ), Biden's attorneys discovered a second set of documents at Biden's home on December 20, followed by several more on January 9 and January 12, 2023. Biden's personal attorney said on January 21 that the Justice Department discovered six items containing classification markings during a consensual search of his home the previous day, some of which dated to his tenure in the Senate; investigators also seized some of Biden's handwritten notes from his vice presidency

You are completely right that other officials, including Biden, keeping classified information isn't novel, but the keyword here is, cooperation, cooperation, and more cooperation. This will be very important once we get to Trump.

Let's compare this to the Trump case:
Trump was indicted in June 2023 by a federal grand jury in Miami for taking classified national defense documents from the White House after he left office and resisting the government’s attempts to retrieve the materials. Both Trump and his aide Walt Nauta have pleaded not guilty.

On July 27, the special counsel charged Trump with three new counts, including one additional count of willful retention of national defense information. Nauta was also charged on two new counts. A third defendant, Carlos de Oliveira, was added to the case and charged with four counts, including being added to the obstruction conspiracy charged in the original indictment.


Key differences:

Biden has said he was surprised to learn he had classified information in his possession. Trump has said on social media, without providing evidence, that he declassified the records, though his attorneys have declined to repeat that assertion in court filings.

Legal experts say there are stark contrasts between the two cases.

In Trump's case, the National Archives tried for more than a year after Trump left office to retrieve all of the records he retained, without success. When Trump finally returned 15 boxes of documents in January 2022, Archives officials discovered they contained classified materials.

The matter was referred to the Justice Department, which issued a grand jury subpoena last May seeking the return of all classified records. Investigators then visited Trump's home, where his attorneys handed over more material and asserted there were no more documents on the premises.That turned out to be false.

Additional evidence collected by the FBI, including surveillance footage from the Mar-a-Lago estate, prompted agents to seek court approval to execute a search warrant on Aug. 8 amid concerns over possible obstruction.

The FBI recovered an additional 13,000 documents, about 100 of which were marked as classified.


The key issue here isn't the classified documents themselves, it is the obstruction aspect and the refusal to cooperate with NARA.

Then the refusal to cooperate with the Justice Department and his lawyers lying that they gave back all the classified material.

Can you acknowledge the differences in these two cases?


So called cooperation doesn't wash Jedi.
The 'fess up' was done AFTER they decided to go after Trump. The documents were in Biden's possession for years.
'Oh I didn't realise' doesn't cut it and the very fact NO ONE had chased him down for these documents before is the most telling of all.

Trump has every right to negotiate with the records office - it's part of the process and has been for other Presidents. 1 year of back and forth discussions is nothing.
He'd already returned a number of records and just 100 out of 13,000 were still in his possession - that could simply mean the search by whoever Trump had on the job (he would not have been trawling through them himself) wasn't thorough.
The referral to the Justice Dept and the subsequent raid was entirely premature.

So, no I cant acknowledge the difference - it appears that animus between Trump and the Justice Dept is the driving force here.
Let us also remember that Hillary Clinton actually destroyed evidence - clear obstruction - and was not charged.

We can talk about 'differences' around the edges all we like but these are Presidents and high ranking officials we are talking about and the move to go after a former President is unprecedented and should have been absolutely imperative - not based on impatience and perceived differences in response.

The other indictments all landing at the same time in the run up to primaries and the election are just further evidence of a coordinated effort.
I think it's disingenuous to pretend that 4 cases all brought in quick succession by Democrats in a run up to elections are anything but political interference and law fare.
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