American Politics

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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:53 am

No, the economy is not thriving because of Obama's policies. That is simply a kop out by anti Trumpers who are desperate to try to keep him from being reelected. I am all for giving credit where due, but when the 2008 crash is misrepresented as due to Bush when it was all about the subprime mortgage crisis caused by Frank, Dodd and their party, well it is very hard to take people like Bernie seriously when they seem not understand economics or have to lie about it.

Bernie's tax plan (and M4A) will put more money into the pockets of average Americans. If you go on a site for his tax plan (https://www.bernietax.com), you can see how it would affect you. If you enter the numbers for the average household ($56,516 for household income and $5,277 for household healthcare costs), the average household's disposable income will be almost $4,000 higher per year—this number includes M4A payment and the added benefit of no networks. Here's how much each tax bracket would pay towards Bernie's M4A:
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Can I ask you why you think the average American would be against that?


Firstly, I would be very wary of a campaign site like that especially as the numbers are very sketchy. Medicare for all will cost everyone a whole lot , just as Obamacare did despite the claims it was going to save us all 2k. You can't tax the "rich" enough to make all of the things he is promising work. Warren ran head first into that reality when she claimed the middle class would not have to pay for her programs...she was forced to backup the truck and admit it would. Simple math. Most Americans understand that such plans are BS, which is why Carvelle is going insane again.

You misrepresent me. I'm neither a socialist nor desire a shift to pure socialism. I'm a social democrat, center-left on the left-right axis.


Well in that case you would really surprised if Bernie ever got himself elected.

Workers should have greater control over the companies since they are a major part in companies' successes or failures. Basically stronger unions.


Except it is the business owners who take all of the risk. My wife and I have had three companies in which we employed workers, and yes while it takes workers to make things and perform services they have no real stake in the company and nor should they. Unions are dying because they are simply political action organizations now.

• Green initiatives and environmentalism are extremely important to me and my generation. Capitalism has proven it doesn't give a damn about the environment, instead choosing to chase its fix of short-term profits.


This is utter nonsense. The cleanest, most environmentally friendly are capitalist systems. They are the only ones who can afford to be. You have the Bernie/AOC hyperbole down pat. I thought you were center left not a true socialist?


• To expand on the above bullet point, greater regulation of certain industries. For example, it's bullshit that telecom companies were given billions of taxpayer dollars to build out fiber networks, yet those companies pocketed the money and continue to gouge customers because of local monopolies and lack of choice; it's basically legalized racketeering. We need to nationalize ISPs.


Seems to me that Trump's infrastructure covers rural fiber optic systems, and I sure a whole lot of cable going in. Nationalize the telecom industry? There are all sorts of choices in most parts of the country. When you propose nationalizing any industry look out...because by definition you are eliminating competition. That is the ultimate monopoly. Besides, you REALLY think the government which can't run a postal service without raising the prices every year is going to do better than what we have? And you want them in charge of all our healthcare too? Free stuff is not free no matter what Bernie claims.

Universal healthcare, improved poverty benefits, and social security that will improve the economy in the long run because people will be more willing to take entrepreneurial risks and will have a better shot of achieving their potential. For example, how many potential game changing renewable energy companies haven't been founded because potential founders are scared of giving up their current job-sponsored healthcare?


Have you ever started a company or plan to? If someone is scared to try it will not work anyway. Welfare kills ingenuity as it produces a dependent class. The Green New Deal proposes paying people who do not care to work which is insanity.

Solyndra ring any bells? Innovation is a product of market demand. When a solution for any problem or demand for new product becomes cost effective it is invented, improved on or produced.

Or how many potential Einsteins never got to reach even half their potential because they're in jail or six feet under due to being raised by the streets or never getting the chance to go to college or a trade school because they can't afford it since a single parent worked all the time in order to provide a roof and food instead of being home more often to nurture or two incomes to help offset costs?


Or being aborted? (Sorry, too easy!) Single parenthood is a huge issue, and if you do some research you will find that the massive shift in family structure in the US started in the mid sixties with the welfare state created by LBJ and has accelerated ever since as safety nets (which I support 100%) have become a lifestyle. Liberalization and abandonment of social and cultural standards leads to poverty as any generational Dem controlled city demonstrates so sadly.

Sounds to me that you have gone full on Bernie but do not want to come clean in your own mind that he is a socialist. Good luck.

BTW, what part of the US are you from? Just curious.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:58 am

Pat Rice you dont get to claim that "capitalist" systems are the most green like its some kind of victory for your politics

The cleanest economies are ones run by centre left, and even left wing systems which are also capitalist

Your side does not own the concept of buying and selling and having a strong economy

Countries with Centre left dominated and liberal systems are among the best places to live in the world by almost any measure you can name

Take Sweden, Nederlands, Denmark, Norway, Ireland etc. Better quality of life than the US, better education systems, more peaceful, less crime, less people in prison, free healthcare AND similar GDP per capita to the US as well.

What, do you think you get to claim credit for all the successful countries in the world and leave the left with Venezuela and Cuba? I'm sorry it doesn't work like that, otherwise lets spend the next ten pages talking about all the examples all over the world of capitalist States which are full of dirt poor people
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Re: American Politics

Postby LMAO » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:52 am

The claim that capitalist systems (and by this, I mean the right at large) care about the environment is quite frankly bullshit.
Brookings: Tracking deregulation in the Trump era
NYT: 95 Environmental Rules Being Rolled Back Under Trump
Lie to me again about how capitalist systems care about the environment.

James Carville, a Clinton Democrat gone senile, is against Bernie's policies. You don't say... On the other hand, Michael Moore, who called Trump in 2016, has said Bernie will win if nominated. But nah, let's not mention him since he goes against your narrative.

You don't get to disregard Obama then prop up Trump on the economy when the regression lines are eerily similar. That's dishonest.

You can continue to disregard M4A all you want, but every other developed country has made public healthcare systems work, yet somehow the United States is a special case, even though per capita, we outspend the next closest country by almost 2x? Hogwash.

You forgot to mention labor unions are declining because of companies firing workers or shutting down stores when workers try to unionize (companies like Walmart, Amazon, Google ring any bells?).

Eliminating competition by nationalizing? Uh, have you checked available internet service providers for much of the country? It's already a monopoly ffs. Except this time, the government can offer lower and fairer prices (see: Chattanooga, TN) instead of the current private companies gouging customers so their C-suites can reward themselves with bonuses at the end of the year. As for the Trump fiber optic revolution, are you referring to the two executive orders he signed two years ago that have barely gone anywhere?

I love when the right brings up cities failing due to Democratic control. Please explain to the rest of the class why states like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, West Virginia, Kentucky, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Oklahoma are shit in virtually every metric and depend more on federal funds than they pay into the system. Is it because of left-wing policies?

Don't worry, hopefully Bernie changes your mind starting on January 20, 2021 and you can see that the Red Scare is over ;) Also, for the millionth time, Yang is my preferred candidate, but Bernie is my strategic choice. I haven't gone full Bernie Bro, I'm simply looking at his policies. You've said people irrationally (which I strongly disagree with about irrationally) hate Trump, yet you're doing the exact same thing you accuse others of, except you're doing it with Bernie.
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Re: American Politics

Postby LMAO » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:16 am

UFGN wrote:Pat Rice you dont get to claim that "capitalist" systems are the most green like its some kind of victory for your politics

The cleanest economies are ones run by centre left, and even left wing systems which are also capitalist

Your side does not own the concept of buying and selling and having a strong economy

Countries with Centre left dominated and liberal systems are among the best places to live in the world by almost any measure you can name

Take Sweden, Nederlands, Denmark, Norway, Ireland etc. Better quality of life than the US, better education systems, more peaceful, less crime, less people in prison, free healthcare AND similar GDP per capita to the US as well.

What, do you think you get to claim credit for all the successful countries in the world and leave the left with Venezuela and Cuba? I'm sorry it doesn't work like that, otherwise lets spend the next ten pages talking about all the examples all over the world of capitalist States which are full of dirt poor people


Good post.

Also convenient to overlook a large part of why Venezuela and Cuba failed. And for all the merits the right bang on about capitalism, go ask an older person in Russia if they prefer Russia today or Russia 40 years ago. There's a strong yearning for the return to the ways of the USSR. But muh capitalism.

Also, it's hilarious how a lot of the right love to show their support for the military in one breath and crap on socialism in the next. The military is one of the largest, if not the largest, socialist programs in history lmao. Irony truly is dead.

Anyway, this whole debate on capitalism vs. socialism is f***ing stupid nonsense brought up to smear people like Sanders (WHO DOESN'T EVEN WANT TO ERADICATE CAPITALISM FFS). I've said many times before on here, mixed economies—a little bit of capitalism and a little bit of socialism—do best. But no, everything has to devolve into a binary paradigm.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:07 pm

UFGN wrote:Pat Rice you dont get to claim that "capitalist" systems are the most green like its some kind of victory for your politics

The cleanest economies are ones run by centre left, and even left wing systems which are also capitalist

Your side does not own the concept of buying and selling and having a strong economy

Countries with Centre left dominated and liberal systems are among the best places to live in the world by almost any measure you can name

Take Sweden, Nederlands, Denmark, Norway, Ireland etc. Better quality of life than the US, better education systems, more peaceful, less crime, less people in prison, free healthcare AND similar GDP per capita to the US as well.

What, do you think you get to claim credit for all the successful countries in the world and leave the left with Venezuela and Cuba? I'm sorry it doesn't work like that, otherwise lets spend the next ten pages talking about all the examples all over the world of capitalist States which are full of dirt poor people


Yes dude, capitalist economies are the cleanest because they can afford to be. Nothing to do with taking political credit...just facts. You always seem to confuse social systems with socialism as an economic system. In democracies such as the Scandinavian nations the people are free to vote for high taxes and cradle to grave care, and in the US we are free to reject that.

Name a successful socialist economy. It's quite telling there have been none and those which tried (ie. Vietnam, China, Bolivia) have reverted to capitalism.

My dad was from Sweden, that country is changing very quickly and not for the better sadly. Denmark has maintained its cultural and economic standards through capitalism and refusing to go along with the refugee mandates.

It is quite simple...a strong economy makes people productive, happier, better off and reduces the need for welfare as we are seeing here in the US. I have no idea why anyone in the US , like recent university grads who three years ago could not find work and are now suddenly being hired before they even graduate would even consider f***ing around with what is working. Poverty is being greatly reduced all over the globe, we do not have whole nations starving to death (unless it is a situation like South Sudan in which rebels and thugs are in control).

If you guys had not paid attention, the unions are actively opposing Bernie and Warren and all of the Medicare for all crowd. The "man of the people" socialist and Social Democratic platform is being rejected by quite the coalition of disparate voter blocks.
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What would Eboue do? Fall off the stretcher.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:26 pm

Also convenient to overlook a large part of why Venezuela and Cuba failed. And for all the merits the right bang on about capitalism, go ask an older person in Russia if they prefer Russia today or Russia 40 years ago. There's a strong yearning for the return to the ways of the USSR. But muh capitalism.


Why did they fail in your mind?

What happened in Russia/Ukraine obviously was corruption on a massive scale, which was a carry over from the communist days as the newly elected leaders divied up all of the industry between their buddies. No system can succeed with rampant corruption.

Also, it's hilarious how a lot of the right love to show their support for the military in one breath and crap on socialism in the next. The military is one of the largest, if not the largest, socialist programs in history lmao. Irony truly is dead.



Sorry but you have no idea about the military. Private armies are not exactly Constitutional. Maintaining defense is a government function, and not every such function is socialism.

Anyway, this whole debate on capitalism vs. socialism is f***ing stupid nonsense brought up to smear people like Sanders (WHO DOESN'T EVEN WANT TO ERADICATE CAPITALISM FFS). I've said many times before on here, mixed economies—a little bit of capitalism and a little bit of socialism—do best. But no, everything has to devolve into a binary paradigm.


Sanders is being opposed on his record and stated policies, not smeared. The idea that systems must be binary choice is indeed false, what we have now is a society in which people are thriving...a capitalist system with social safety nets.

"The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States. DSA’s members are building progressive movements for social change while establishing an openly democratic socialist presence in American communities and politics.
At the root of our socialism is a profound commitment to democracy, as means and end. As we are unlikely to see an immediate end to capitalism tomorrow, DSA fights for reforms today that will weaken the power of corporations and increase the power of working people."


You claim to be a Dem Socialist as Bernie is yet you don't want to admit that their platform very extreme. Now they have mellowed out their rhetoric to some extent recently but as of two years ago their website stated goals such as eliminating profit, nationalization of industry (as you argued for in the telecom sector) confiscating private businesses and handing them to the "workers". Dude, that is communism.
https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:25 pm

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... vada-rally

Udderly funny stuff! Bernie was bewildered the first time but is getting used to topless chicks rushing the stage.

Next stop for these women has to be Massiland where they will stop the practice of arrowing cows in the juggler to drink their blood, then on to India to stop the cruel practice of milking goats.
What would Nasri do? Never mind.
What would Eboue do? Fall off the stretcher.
What would Auba do? Just f***ing score.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:17 pm

Wow. This is how scared the Dem party is of Sanders. Washington Post yesterday...a call to reign in democracy and hand over the decisions to the "elites".


http://archive.is/ktFep
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Re: American Politics

Postby Jedi » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:20 am

Holy f**k, Bloomberg was bad in that debate. Did he not have prep? He was completely incapable of dealing with the pressure. I expected him to have rough moments but not a roast session that he barely stumbled and stuttered through.

He can't be the nominee, Trump would baptize him in a debate.

Right now my preference is:
1) Warren
2) Sanders
3) Pete
4) Biden
5) Klobuchar
6) Bloomberg
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Re: American Politics

Postby DiamondGooner » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:58 pm

Jedi wrote:Holy f**k, Bloomberg was bad in that debate. Did he not have prep? He was completely incapable of dealing with the pressure. I expected him to have rough moments but not a roast session that he barely stumbled and stuttered through.

He can't be the nominee, Trump would baptize him in a debate.

Right now my preference is:
1) Warren
2) Sanders
3) Pete
4) Biden
5) Klobuchar
6) Bloomberg


Your preference? aren't you from Belgium or something?

You don't half like to stick your oar into other peoples politics, you can say who you like sure but saying "Well my preference is .........." when you don't even have a vote or aren't American is a bit presumptuous, no?
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Re: American Politics

Postby DiamondGooner » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:08 pm

Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:Wow. This is how scared the Dem party is of Sanders. Washington Post yesterday...a call to reign in democracy and hand over the decisions to the "elites".


http://archive.is/ktFep


Its because the Dems are corrupt as fk, some of the stories and things I've seen and heard are horrendous considering the Dems paint this holier than thou image.

I think some of the grass roots and new breed Dems are less corrupt but the old guard and the guys that run the party are fkin horrendous, I've even seen complaints from the younger Dems who've admitted they've been told to stand down from local elections and I'll never forget the time St Obama went down to Michigan and told the locals that their water was fine.......... that shocked me tbf, it was sick, Obama ruined his whole legacy right then and there.

Peoples children ending up in hospital, people dying, the water clearly poisonous and they fly Obama in to "calm the peasants" by telling them the water is ok, he even sipped a glass of water in front of them, doesn't even look like he swallowed it.

That's something I'd of expected from Bush, not St Obama, he proved then and there that he's as corrupt as the next guy.

They should win Oscars for some of their acting.
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:15 pm

DiamondGooner wrote:
Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:Wow. This is how scared the Dem party is of Sanders. Washington Post yesterday...a call to reign in democracy and hand over the decisions to the "elites".


http://archive.is/ktFep


Its because the Dems are corrupt as fk, some of the stories and things I've seen and heard are horrendous considering the Dems paint this holier than thou image.

I think some of the grass roots and new breed Dems are less corrupt but the old guard and the guys that run the party are fkin horrendous, I've even seen complaints from the younger Dems who've admitted they've been told to stand down from local elections and I'll never forget the time St Obama went down to Michigan and told the locals that their water was fine.......... that shocked me tbf, it was sick, Obama ruined his whole legacy right then and there.

Peoples children ending up in hospital, people dying, the water clearly poisonous and they fly Obama in to "calm the peasants" by telling them the water is ok, he even sipped a glass of water in front of them, doesn't even look like he swallowed it.

That's something I'd of expected from Bush, not St Obama, he proved then and there that he's as corrupt as the next guy.

They should win Oscars for some of their acting.


You are correct, but have understated the depth and breadth of said corruption...is sort of reported and then dropped or forgotten.

Biden, Contracts to Iraq and Afghanistan for building housing go to his brother. His son is up to his eyes in China and Ukraine influence money.

Clintons. Hillary's brother got rights to a huge chunk of Haiti's gold reserves while she was Sec of State and their foundation was dangling a small % of Haitian relief funds they had collected in the balance. Hillary funded the Steele Dossier which led to all of the Russia investigation BS and then was found to be 100% false.

Obama. Huge abuses of power of agencies such as the IRS, FBI, CIA, OSHA. Susan Rice "outing" over 200 innocent US citizens through FISA courts and requests to the intel agencies for political reasons. Holder claiming he was Obama's wing man...ironic yet ignored. Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in secret just prior to the DOJ supposedly questioning Hillary about her emails but then not putting her under oath nor even properly recording the interview.

Warren lies about everything and faked being an Indian to get two plumb jobs.

Mayor Pete inflating his military record big time. Turns out he got a political appointment to the Navy just as Hunter Biden did, which means they skipped all training and went straight in and were never sent into combat. Desk jobs to tic a box.

Bloomberg...an arrogant Napoleon wanna be who wants nothing more to do with any sort of debate.

In short, if a Dem politician accuses someone of something such as being corrupt, fascist or racist you can be 90% certain the role is actually reversed.

Sanders, even he is hiding his real views but his staff and guest speakers such as the City Council Trotskyite woman in Seattle and AOC keep letting slip just how radical they are. The Bernie Bros beating up the wrong guy, oh man look those Communists go. It's the freakiest show.

Trump is no choir boy but his policies are working for America. Impossible to beat that with this bunch.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:58 pm

Bloomberg was a mess. How has he become a business leader when he cant handle pressure or speak convincingly?
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Re: American Politics

Postby Pat Rice in Short Shorts » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:05 pm

UFGN wrote:Bloomberg was a mess. How has he become a business leader when he cant handle pressure or speak convincingly?


The man has no real compass. Last week he was the Dems last best hope. Before that it was Biden, then Buttigieg. Before that it was Avenatti.

Last night they lamabasted him for spending $400m so far then this morning Liz Warren tells him to get out of the race but keep pumping the money in!

Best post debate comment on TV was "Bloomberg brought a wallet to a knife fight".

No way that a whole party can run simply on beating Trump and have a chance in hell. The union vote is lining up behind Trump again. Bernie is either going to win the nomination or have it stolen again. The Dem party is in utter disarray because identity politics has come back to bite them. They are eating their own, reaping what they have sown for the last twenty years.

Watch this space because I'd bet that Michelle Obama will be mentioned more and more as the next savior.
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What would Eboue do? Fall off the stretcher.
What would Auba do? Just f***ing score.
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Re: American Politics

Postby UFGN » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:58 pm

Pat Rice in Short Shorts wrote:
UFGN wrote:Bloomberg was a mess. How has he become a business leader when he cant handle pressure or speak convincingly?


The man has no real compass. Last week he was the Dems last best hope. Before that it was Biden, then Buttigieg. Before that it was Avenatti.

Last night they lamabasted him for spending $400m so far then this morning Liz Warren tells him to get out of the race but keep pumping the money in!

Best post debate comment on TV was "Bloomberg brought a wallet to a knife fight".

No way that a whole party can run simply on beating Trump and have a chance in hell. The union vote is lining up behind Trump again. Bernie is either going to win the nomination or have it stolen again. The Dem party is in utter disarray because identity politics has come back to bite them. They are eating their own, reaping what they have sown for the last twenty years.

Watch this space because I'd bet that Michelle Obama will be mentioned more and more as the next savior.


Oh do me a favour

You talk about "identity politics" and "reaping what you sew" like the Pubbers haven't got a graveyard of redneck bullshit in their closet

What is the the Confederate flag, fox news and the NRA? I'll tell you what it is, its identity politics

But its ok if its your crew right?

The Right vomit their testicles up with rage at a few lesbians kicking off, and a few debates over abortion, and label it "identity politics" when their own politics are laced with a poisonous past and present of badge wearing. Very nasty badge wearing
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