British Politics

[Phil71]

I think Mrs may will be ousted by her own within the next fortnight.

[Pudpop]

Quick question to you brits about this whole 'not doing Brexit is an affront to democracy' argument, did you lot not have an election after the Brexit vote? Didn't May promise Brexit, have an election and then lose the Tory majority?

Idk but that sounds like the people saying they didn't want Brexit to me.

[Arsenal Tone]

You're more concerned with forcing through a leave vote because the people voted on absolute lies 2 years ago than actually looking at what benefits a leave vote would give us versus the massive pitfalls.

You talk like every country in the world isn't doing just fine outside of the EU?

Who sold you this line that if we're not in the UK we'll sink into the atlantic?

The fact is all those pit falls you declared are "possibilities" I'm not saying they are or aren't I'm saying no one know's because we're not out of the EU and we haven't gone out on our own so no one know's.

What Remain are doing is using the uncertainty of no-deal to declare it a bad thing.

You see as you said, I'm bothered that the referendum isn't carried out despite the uncertainty .......... well yes Zedie, because that's how democracy works.

If we were to fail to deliver Brexit then what? what democratic elected decision should ever be upheld? ......... that's called a dictatorship.

I'm pretty disgusted to be fair because Remain started off saying "Well yes the votes been had but we want a Soft Brexit" now its "We want another chance to vote Remain".

Hypocrisy doesn't wash down very well when your a central voter who believes in democracy.

Whether you like it or not, there was a result and all these threats were issued before the vote, Remain just want to rehash it until they get the outcome they want, that is not democracy, which is why I can't side with Remain.

The fact that you and UFGN can't grasp why that's my position is the whole trouble with why middle of the road voters get turned off by this Ultra socialist approach of not accepting a democratic decision.

Is the no deal or shite deal we are likely to get what the 'leavers' voted for? If the deal involves staying in the single market and/or keeping freedom of movement should we still go ahead?

I think there are a lot of people who voted leave who are now realising that what they voted for (based on BS from the likes of farage and boris) isn't attainable. That is why they should be given a chance to vote on whatever rubbish deal/no deal is on the table.

Of course its not attainable.

Because Parliament has gone back on their word, they are refusing to allow us to break away clean of the EU and go to WTO rules (same as the rest of the world).

This is what I have a problem with more than whether we leave or stay.

My issue is that there has been a miscarriage of democracy where May and her remainer friends will not allow us to leave the EU despite the vote, so how could Leave ever have stood a chance.
In a nutshell they are messing it up on purpose.

............ and yes Boris and co are disgusting cretins for ducking and running and leaving it to a Remainer in May to deliver Brexit.

Complete farce.

So the question is yes, we have another vote ............... then what if that's Leave too?

If the next vote is leave then we leave with whatever sh!tty deal/no deal the government has in place at the time of the vote. That is the point of the vote, the question put to the country would be 'do you still want to leave now that you know the terms of leaving?'

I suspect that for many who voted 'leave' the answer would be 'no'. Also, for those who didn't vote because they didn't really know what they were voting for they'd know exactly what they'd be voting for and I'd imagine would also be likely to vote remain.

[EliteKiller]

[quote="LMAO"]The EU is a bloc with a population of 512,596,403 (446,556,174 without the UK) and a nominal GDP of $17.3B ($14.7B without the UK). Thus, the EU holds significantly more leverage when it comes to negotiating trade deals than any of its member countries would individually because the EU has greater competitive advantage offerings. The UK alone will find it difficult to convince trading partners to come to deals that are at least as fair as what the EU enjoys. Yes, the UK will be able to forge its own trade agreements with maybe some more beneficial to the UK than current EU deals, but what will be the overall cost?

So your argument suggests India has a greater ability to negotiate Trade Deals than the United States --- 1,339 million people versus just 325m .... hmmm are you sure?

The UK has the World's 5th largest GDP so again using your logic that means we have more leverage when negotiating Trade deals than 190 other countries .... that's pretty good ...

Think you're confusing Population, GDP, and Trade negotiations ... population frankly makes little difference, and if your GDP is heavily based around very few export categories then it gives you a weak negotiating position ....

Trade is all about supply and demand ... you can have a huge population, produce billions of 'widgets' but if nobody wants them your trading position is pretty shit ... just look at milk producers ... millions of producers, great product, but you can barely give the stuff away ...

The fact is nobody can predict what will happen post Brexit without knowing the terms that the UK get with the EU ... to claim either 'we would be significantly worse off' or indeed that 'we would be significantly better off' is speculative ... all it would seem sensible to do is compare the UK with other countries outside of the EU, and frankly the vast majority of these comparable economies - US - Canada - Australia - Japan are performing as well or better than the EU ...

The UK's service sector is the greatest contributor to its nominal GDP, with the financial industry of London making up a huge chunk of it. Without London being in the EU and thus allowing access to the EU's financial markets, the importance of the UK's financial sector will diminish, thus making it more reliant on the big outside players (i.e., America, the EU, and China) than it was before. Y'all still have aerospace, pharmaceuticals, and machinery, but without your primary competitive advantage (financial services), the UK's economy will take a noticeable hit.

You make a good point, however that assumes that after Brexit there will be some sort of block on trading and clearing derivatives, but that makes no sense for London or the EU .... it will be far better for the EU to have London maintain standard EU banking and clearing rules, the alternative being that London eases banking rules and actually takes business from the EU ... think Singapore or Hong Kong or think even closer to home ...

don't forget that two of the biggest financial centers in the world are already in Europe - but neither are in the EU ... London, Zurich, Geneva would just make that three ....

http://uk.businessinsider.com/most-powe ... category-1

[DiamondGooner]

I think Mrs may will be ousted by her own within the next fortnight.

She won't because the cowards don't want the job of delivering, they're happy to crow the benefits of Brexit but flounder as soon as anyone suggests they step forward and do it.

It also may be tactical, a true Leaver may not get anything through Parliament let alone the backing of the Tories to actually get to be Prime minister, I think having May the Remainer was seen as a sort of half olive branch to not freak out all the Remainer's in Parliament.

[Phil71]

I think Mrs may will be ousted by her own within the next fortnight.

She won't because the cowards don't want the job of delivering, they're happy to crow the benefits of Brexit but flounder as soon as anyone suggests they step forward and do it.

It also may be tactical, a true Leaver may not get anything through Parliament let alone the backing of the Tories to actually get to be Prime minister, I think having May the Remainer was seen as a sort of half olive branch to not freak out all the Remainer's in Parliament.

It has to now be sorted by December.

Nobody is going to agree to the deal she has proposed. Not the EU, nor her Party. With that being the case, a new proposal has to be agreed internally here. That will take time, and so will appointing her replacement. I think they'll make their move soon.

[UFGN]

f***ing Tories

Put Andy Burnham back in Parliament and have him challenge Corbyn.

Having a strong LOTO would change everything, and he'd be PM soon enough

[Phil71]

f***ing Tories

Put Andy Burnham back in Parliament and have him challenge Corbyn.

Having a strong LOTO would change everything, and he'd be PM soon enough

ha ha. That old guard have no chance of getting back in power.

Comrade Corbyn is there to stay mate. He'll be in charge of the Labour Party til they're having to prop him up by his elbows like they did with the old fellas at the Kremlin.

[Rockape]

Its all one huge clusterf**k.....a total disaster for our country and I can't believe that anyone truly believes that a second referendum (once the full details of the deal are known) would be undemocratic. Personally, I don't think whoever was leading the negotiations would have a chance against team EU, who are in the driving seat. I can't believe May has had the drive to see this through....its not exactly doing her any favours!

[Phil71]

Its all one huge clusterf**k.....a total disaster for our country and I can't believe that anyone truly believes that a second referendum (once the full details of the deal are known) would be undemocratic. Personally, I don't think whoever was leading the negotiations would have a chance against team EU, who are in the driving seat. I can't believe May has had the drive to see this through....its not exactly doing her any favours!

Yep.

Parliament has made a mess of brexit. It's not just the government, it's all of the other parties who have presented this dis-jointed view for all to see. They are just interested in furthering their own political aims, and are using brexit as a means to bash the government and cause chaos.

Send it back to the people. Have another referendum and this time word it so that a leave result gives the government a clear mandate for no deal if that is necessary.

[Marsbar100]

Leave clearly meant leave if concessions had to be made on things like an open border policy

[EliteKiller]

Its all one huge clusterf**k.....a total disaster for our country and I can't believe that anyone truly believes that a second referendum (once the full details of the deal are known) would be undemocratic. Personally, I don't think whoever was leading the negotiations would have a chance against team EU, who are in the driving seat. I can't believe May has had the drive to see this through....its not exactly doing her any favours!

Well the full details won't be known until 2021 as all that will be agreed now is the 'framework' of the deal to be thrashed out over the next two years ...

In December or January, once the EU and the UK have agreed on a withdrawal treaty and an outline sketching their future relations, the deal will be put to a House of Commons vote .... if that goes through

EU ratification - Before the Brexit deal can take effect, it must also be approved by the European Parliament in a plenary vote. Any legally questionable elements of the withdrawal treaty could also be referred to the European Court of Justice by MEPs. - 3-6 months

Trade talks and transition - Full-fledged trade talks can only now begin between the UK and the EU. While Britain remained a member state, such talks were not permitted under EU law. Under the deal reached in principle in 2019, this is when the 21-month transition period begins. During this time most aspects of UK membership of the EU will remain in place, including free movement across borders and membership of the customs union and single market. But Britain will no longer have a vote. - complete in late 2020

Only then at some point in late 2020 will the full details of any deal be known .... is that when you want another vote?

or do we vote again on "what we think a deal will look like" and then vote again when "we have an actual deal" ... haven't we already done the first one?

[DiamondGooner]

Its all one huge clusterf**k.....a total disaster for our country and I can't believe that anyone truly believes that a second referendum (once the full details of the deal are known) would be undemocratic. Personally, I don't think whoever was leading the negotiations would have a chance against team EU, who are in the driving seat. I can't believe May has had the drive to see this through....its not exactly doing her any favours!

Yep.

Parliament has made a mess of brexit. It's not just the government, it's all of the other parties who have presented this dis-jointed view for all to see. They are just interested in furthering their own political aims, and are using brexit as a means to bash the government and cause chaos.

Send it back to the people. Have another referendum and this time word it so that a leave result gives the government a clear mandate for no deal if that is necessary.

So what we're riding off here is ............. that apparently the Gov't weren't clear enough on the last referendum? Leave apparently doesn't mean Leave right?

Tbf I could give a fk if it goes for a 2nd ref but then what happens if Leave win again? we have a 3rd, 4th?

My issue with having a 2nd ref is that the Gov't who promised they would carry this through have been on a 2 year scare mongering campaign and have literally got Leaver's pulling their hair out because the Gov't have literally gone "Well we'll do it but we don't want to so we're not going to do it properly or get a good deal because we don't want Leave to work".

That right there is what fks me off more than any outcome, Leave, Remain, as long as the country does well I don't care but what the Gov't have done is unforgivable, they've back doored the people because its not what they wanted, democracy has failed.

[Rockape]

My issue with having a 2nd ref is that the Gov't who promised they would carry this through have been on a 2 year scare mongering campaign and have literally got Leaver's pulling their hair out because the Gov't have literally gone "Well we'll do it but we don't want to so we're not going to do it properly or get a good deal because we don't want Leave to work".

Not sure I agree with that. My take on is that the EU saw the referendum result and all sat round and said....if we let them leave with a reasonable deal, it will be the beginning of the end, so we have to make it as tough as possible.

So TM then has to stand up against 20 odd Countries leaders and try and get some agreements in place, which have just been dismissed one after the other. She can't really say fine, we'll walk away with no deal, as it will cause carnage for a lot of people. So what does she do......she has to give a bit and hope she can get something reasonable in return, same as anyone else would try to do. All these people lining up to slag off her plans, have nothing to add to the process. As she is a 'remainer' it at least allows her to gain some common ground with the EU negotiators. I'm no fan of TM, but really think she is doing the best we can reasonably expect from the process.

[DiamondGooner]

My issue with having a 2nd ref is that the Gov't who promised they would carry this through have been on a 2 year scare mongering campaign and have literally got Leaver's pulling their hair out because the Gov't have literally gone "Well we'll do it but we don't want to so we're not going to do it properly or get a good deal because we don't want Leave to work".

Not sure I agree with that. My take on is that the EU saw the referendum result and all sat round and said....if we let them leave with a reasonable deal, it will be the beginning of the end, so we have to make it as tough as possible.

So TM then has to stand up against 20 odd Countries leaders and try and get some agreements in place, which have just been dismissed one after the other. She can't really say fine, we'll walk away with no deal, as it will cause carnage for a lot of people. So what does she do......she has to give a bit and hope she can get something reasonable in return, same as anyone else would try to do. All these people lining up to slag off her plans, have nothing to add to the process. As she is a 'remainer' it at least allows her to gain some common ground with the EU negotiators. I'm no fan of TM, but really think she is doing the best we can reasonably expect from the process.

Wrong angle though.

If we had said No Deal from the off i.e 2 years ago and have been cultivating and preparing deals etc since the EU would be literally saying "Well ....... how do you want to buy our goods? travel here?"

That's the starting off point for negotiation not "We're leaving ........but but, we want to stayyyyy".
See the difference?

People acting like we have it all to lose are out of their minds, German car manufacturers have invested in Britain big time, do you know how much Mercedes, BMW etc make from the UK? how many franchise lots they have here? we stick tariffs on their cars and all of a sudden we're all driving American and Japanese cars.
German car manufacturers and their unions have massive pull in Germany, then you have the holiday destinations in Spain etc some of those destinations literally survive on British money.
French and Italian foods and goods, the list is endless, then last but not least is the immigration!

With issues about migrants already in France and Germany do you know how sh*t scared they are of Britain raising up the draw bridge and saying "No we're not taking these thousands of migrants" ......... guess where they'll go then? yes France and Germany, causing political mayhem and strain on their economies.

............. but yes tell me again how its all us that lose?

Don't buy into the propaganda machine, this pr*cks have spent millions driving this narrative.

Its worth billions to the EU, people have to understand organizations with this much to lose fight back, and they fight back dirty.

No one can comment on how we'd do outside the EU on our own, its uncharted territory, we haven't made any deals and at this rate never will ........... the Gov't don't want it so they've made it fail.

............ and for the love of god don't talk to me about May trying, chequers was dead before it left port, she recons the EU may agree a deal but if it can't get through Parliament, Labour's 6 (BS) tests and her own Conservatives then its a waste of time.
She's also gone head first into Soft Brexit with no prep for No Deal, she's an EU stooge and always has been.