Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Libertine » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:17 pm

ChVint22 wrote:[
Very good point Rev, and this is where the divide between some of our own supporters are. You have one side, who want half the team replaced along with Wenger and are livid right now and think we're doomed. Then you have the cooler heads who are still equally frustrated, but realize that it is still a good thing to be challenging each and every year, and also realize that we do pretty darn well even with the big spenders City and Chelsea on our heels each season now. Life could be worse for Arsenal. Its just the way we throw away our chances that has some in an uproar about the state of the club right now, and you know what I understand that, it doesn't make them bad supporters, or it doesn't make them wrong, its just that they deal with it in a different way.


Excellent post mate :thumbsup:
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Libertine » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:38 pm

Reverend Gooner wrote:I can see that on the individual game basis but not the league table basis. How many weeks have we been top of the league in the last 5 years? We have been well in front and looking like winning in many games but having a big lead in the table and letting is slip is something we have only done once. That is why second is an accomplishment (among other reasons) when we don't spend much time above there and haven't finished there in many years. We do make sure we impress enough to look like a team which can win it before our collapse though, we know how to be in the mix and make people say "Is this Arsenal's year?"

We manage to establish a status quo of winning football leading to strong progression in all competitions and then brush that status quo away at the key moments and win nothing. It is hard to establish that status quo and it stands to reason that if you are capable of building it then you should be capable of bringing something home but we just cannot do it.


Great post Rev.

We haven't won "back-to-back" titles since the 30's.
I've lived through several Arsenal teams that "will go on to dominate the decade/era" and it just never happens.

Bertie Mee won the double in '71
Should've won the cup in '72
Should've won the league again in '73 (better team than '71!)
Then nearly got bloody relegated in '76!

George Graham won the league in '89
Well off the pace in '90
Won it far more impressively in '91 (the best Arsenal team i've ever seen)
Off the pace again in '92
Cup team from '93 to '95, finishing 10th place in '93 and 12th in '95

I'm assuming everyone on here is au fait with the Wenger years?

I understand that everyone "wants more", that's part and parcel of being a football fan.
But so is understanding that we can never have it all........
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby StLGooner » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:46 pm

Good stuff Libs.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby ProudGooner » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:58 pm

I dont want half of the time replaced, I dont want wenger to be replaced either.

I just want him to give up his arrogant ways and fix the problems everyone has been telling him about.

If he refuses to do so then yeah he can leave. Why? Because Arsenal FC is bigger than Arsene Wenger or anyone else.

We dont pay the highest ticket prices to go to the Ashburton Laboroties to go and watch how Arsene Wenger's Juvenile's are developing and growing. Arsenal FC is not there so that Wenger can fulfill his lifetime ambitions. We need to win trophies, we need success we demand it because we are a big club and we are ambitious fans.

And no, we dont want us to break the bank and financially cripple ourselves. IF we would be financially crippled by spending £30 million in 1 transfer window then there is something seriously wrong with our finances.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Van The Man Persie » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:00 am

ProudGooner wrote:I dont want half of the time replaced, I dont want wenger to be replaced either.

I just want him to give up his arrogant ways and fix the problems everyone has been telling him about.

If he refuses to do so then yeah he can leave. Why? Because Arsenal FC is bigger than Arsene Wenger or anyone else.

We dont pay the highest ticket prices to go to the Ashburton Laboroties to go and watch how Arsene Wenger's Juvenile's are developing and growing. Arsenal FC is not there so that Wenger can fulfill his lifetime ambitions. We need to win trophies, we need success we demand it because we are a big club and we are ambitious fans.

And no, we dont want us to break the bank and financially cripple ourselves. IF we would be financially crippled by spending £30 million in 1 transfer window then there is something seriously wrong with our finances.

This

Ive said the same thing and been threatened with the ban. Hope it doesnt happen to you
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby StLGooner » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:31 am

And imo, you two are perfectly fine for voicing your displeasure, its not exactly the way I'd go about it, but I get it. I think some of the same things at the height of my frustration, which is why I try not to post when I'm frustrated. Cause then I usually cool off and think about the big picture, and its not really about winning to me. But like I said, thats just me, people deal with it in different ways. I don't personally think it makes anyone less of a supporter or not, I read post from old school gooners that think the same way, so this stuff about the new generations being so spoiled with success isn't always true, cause there are 40 y/o gooners that were gooners from birth that say the same things.

Some people like to focus on the negative, some people like to ignore it a bit, and enjoy the positive. We're all still Gooners though.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Van The Man Persie » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:34 am

Well said
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Leody » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:36 am

Reverend Gooner wrote:
Leody wrote:
Reverend Gooner wrote:Very true and I understand it as well. The way we collapse and throw it away in terms of individual games and the bigger picture isn't normal. There is a genuine mental defect in our team and I can see why our "almost making it" again and again doesn't seem good enough even though at face value it is achievement.


We're the man who's on the 18th green in the last round of the Open with a 6 stroke lead and a 4ft putt... who goes on to 7 putt and lose. And then we run around saying, well finishing 2nd is an accomplishment and it's an improvement over last year when I 9 putt that same green to give away the title.

:hiding:

(perhaps 7 putting from 4ft was a tad extreme, but the point remains)


I can see that on the individual game basis but not the league table basis. How many weeks have we been top of the league in the last 5 years? We have been well in front and looking like winning in many games but having a big lead in the table and letting is slip is something we have only done once. That is why second is an accomplishment (among other reasons) when we don't spend much time above there and haven't finished there in many years. We do make sure we impress enough to look like a team which can win it before our collapse though, we know how to be in the mix and make people say "Is this Arsenal's year?"

We manage to establish a status quo of winning football leading to strong progression in all competitions and then brush that status quo away at the key moments and win nothing. It is hard to establish that status quo and it stands to reason that if you are capable of building it then you should be capable of bringing something home but we just cannot do it.


A better analogy would be we're the guy who is in the last pairing of the open and tied with a man in the group ahead going to 18. The man ahead gets double bogey on 18, and we then triple bogey to lose.

Over the last couple of years we've had chance after chance after chance, especially this year, and we never do anything with it.

To me, finishing second this season is in no way an accomplishment and it is not an improvement over last year. We did the exact same thing we did last year, this team has not learned from the mistakes made. I'm not saying I never consider second an accomplishment, but the way we got there this year is a massive disappointment.

We need 12 from our last 6 to finish with the same point total as last term which was 11 off the pace, and we're only averaging 2 points a match thus far this season... so... :dontknow:

Had we really shown any improvement this season, we would have won the title.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Inchpräctice » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:19 am

Just a minor point but the fact that we're in April and up until the Liverpool match we were being thought of as genuine title contenders has to be seen as some kind of progress...?

It feels to me like the last few seasons we've always looked like a team that were destined to finish 3rd or 4th.


Another minor point, but I also remember when the Chavs first had their £200m spending spree and again when City were taken over by billionaires everybody said 'That's it, we're f***ked now. They just have too much money we'll never compete with that.'
And yet now that we are competing with all that money it's still not good enough.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Leody » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:27 am

Inchpractice wrote:Just a minor point but the fact that we're in April and up until the Liverpool match we were being thought of as genuine title contenders has to be seen as some kind of progress...?


IMO, it's not progress, it's regression by the others at the top. We've not been any better this season than last, the other's have just come down to our level. We've shown the same weaknesses and made the same mistakes.

Inchpractice wrote:It feels to me like the last few seasons we've always looked like a team that were destined to finish 3rd or 4th.


Agreed, I even said before the season even started that I thought we'd have a decent run but ultimately come up short.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16698&p=475582#p475582


Inchpractice wrote:Another minor point, but I also remember when the Chavs first had their £200m spending spree and again when City were taken over by billionaires everybody said 'That's it, we're f***ked now. They just have too much money we'll never compete with that.'
And yet now that we are competing with all that money it's still not good enough.


Chavs I wasn't really around for, but when City started up I always said I thought it would take them a couple of years to really challenge, build a good squad, then build good chemistry between the players and get in a good manager. I thought they'd be better by now, but I feel Mancini's held them back.

Something does need to be said for how we've maintained our position despite the comparative lack of spending. You could even twist that into a bit of "progress" if you will... if you want to argue the overall quality of the league has improved and we've maintained our standing. I'd contend we haven't since our Champions League results have been no better. Could debate that till we're blue in the face though.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Inchpräctice » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:45 am

Leody wrote:
Inchpractice wrote:Just a minor point but the fact that we're in April and up until the Liverpool match we were being thought of as genuine title contenders has to be seen as some kind of progress...?


IMO, it's not progress, it's regression by the others at the top. We've not been any better this season than last, the other's have just come down to our level. We've shown the same weaknesses and made the same mistakes.

That's also debatable.
You can't deny that Chelscum and Manure have both drawn/lost games that they wouldn't normally have done but so have the rest of the top four, that only shows that the other Prem teams have improved. There are no whipping boys anymore.
So if we finish above the Chavs with a much much much cheaper squad and playing against the same opposition that has to be a good thing right?



Something does need to be said for how we've maintained our position despite the comparative lack of spending. You could even twist that into a bit of "progress" if you will... if you want to argue the overall quality of the league has improved and we've maintained our standing. I'd contend we haven't since our Champions League results have been no better. Could debate that till we're blue in the face though.

Yes we could, and being blue in the face has never stopped me before as you well know. ;)

The CL is a tricky one because we played very well in it UP until we met Barca who are not only the best team in the competition but probably the best Barca team for 30 years.
Back in 2006 when we came up against them they weren't as good and we could potentially have beaten them with 11 men.
Now they're a very different prospect and will likely go on and win the thing.
They comfortably beat Manure in the final a couple of years ago and that team isn't as good as it now.
My point is that there's no shame in going out to them and it's not the best yardstick to use when judging whether you've made progress in the CL or not (other than the fact that we played ten times better this season than we did last season against them).

Had we come up against a different team we might've got a lot further who knows, but we're still one of very few teams to have beaten Barca this season, even if it was only the first leg.
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Leody » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:55 am

Inchpractice wrote:Yes we could, and being blue in the face has never stopped me before as you well know. ;)


Nor has it ever stopped me... ;)

I'm just so frustrated with this team recently, and until it's indisputable that we've improved, I'm probably going to sway towards no improvement. And this year, it is very debatable.

And I could easily make the argument that while the result against Barca this year was much better, the performance we put in at their place was probably one of the worst displays of "football" I've seen Arsenal put out in quite some time. We were so close to stealing a result, but I was truly embarrassed at how badly they out played us. Probably even more so than last year.
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Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby Arsenal Tone » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:43 am

Inchpractice wrote:
Leody wrote:
Inchpractice wrote:Just a minor point but the fact that we're in April and up until the Liverpool match we were being thought of as genuine title contenders has to be seen as some kind of progress...?


IMO, it's not progress, it's regression by the others at the top. We've not been any better this season than last, the other's have just come down to our level. We've shown the same weaknesses and made the same mistakes.

That's also debatable.
You can't deny that Chelscum and Manure have both drawn/lost games that they wouldn't normally have done but so have the rest of the top four, that only shows that the other Prem teams have improved. There are no whipping boys anymore.
So if we finish above the Chavs with a much much much cheaper squad and playing against the same opposition that has to be a good thing right?



Something does need to be said for how we've maintained our position despite the comparative lack of spending. You could even twist that into a bit of "progress" if you will... if you want to argue the overall quality of the league has improved and we've maintained our standing. I'd contend we haven't since our Champions League results have been no better. Could debate that till we're blue in the face though.

Yes we could, and being blue in the face has never stopped me before as you well know. ;)

The CL is a tricky one because we played very well in it UP until we met Barca who are not only the best team in the competition but probably the best Barca team for 30 years.
Back in 2006 when we came up against them they weren't as good and we could potentially have beaten them with 11 men.
Now they're a very different prospect and will likely go on and win the thing.
They comfortably beat Manure in the final a couple of years ago and that team isn't as good as it now.
My point is that there's no shame in going out to them and it's not the best yardstick to use when judging whether you've made progress in the CL or not (other than the fact that we played ten times better this season than we did last season against them).

Had we come up against a different team we might've got a lot further who knows, but we're still one of very few teams to have beaten Barca this season, even if it was only the first leg.


If we'd won our group we wouldn't have faced them so early!
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Re: Arsenal Vs Liverpool | Premiership 17/04/2011

Postby ProudGooner » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:36 am

Leody wrote:
Reverend Gooner wrote:
Leody wrote:
Reverend Gooner wrote:Very true and I understand it as well. The way we collapse and throw it away in terms of individual games and the bigger picture isn't normal. There is a genuine mental defect in our team and I can see why our "almost making it" again and again doesn't seem good enough even though at face value it is achievement.


We're the man who's on the 18th green in the last round of the Open with a 6 stroke lead and a 4ft putt... who goes on to 7 putt and lose. And then we run around saying, well finishing 2nd is an accomplishment and it's an improvement over last year when I 9 putt that same green to give away the title.

:hiding:

(perhaps 7 putting from 4ft was a tad extreme, but the point remains)


I can see that on the individual game basis but not the league table basis. How many weeks have we been top of the league in the last 5 years? We have been well in front and looking like winning in many games but having a big lead in the table and letting is slip is something we have only done once. That is why second is an accomplishment (among other reasons) when we don't spend much time above there and haven't finished there in many years. We do make sure we impress enough to look like a team which can win it before our collapse though, we know how to be in the mix and make people say "Is this Arsenal's year?"

We manage to establish a status quo of winning football leading to strong progression in all competitions and then brush that status quo away at the key moments and win nothing. It is hard to establish that status quo and it stands to reason that if you are capable of building it then you should be capable of bringing something home but we just cannot do it.


A better analogy would be we're the guy who is in the last pairing of the open and tied with a man in the group ahead going to 18. The man ahead gets double bogey on 18, and we then triple bogey to lose.

Over the last couple of years we've had chance after chance after chance, especially this year, and we never do anything with it.

To me, finishing second this season is in no way an accomplishment and it is not an improvement over last year. We did the exact same thing we did last year, this team has not learned from the mistakes made. I'm not saying I never consider second an accomplishment, but the way we got there this year is a massive disappointment.

We need 12 from our last 6 to finish with the same point total as last term which was 11 off the pace, and we're only averaging 2 points a match thus far this season... so... :dontknow:

Had we really shown any improvement this season, we would have won the title.

When wenger decided to dismantle the Invincibles and start his Juvenile Development Experiment I always said one thing, yeah the players will grow up to technically and physically be as good as anyone. And that is the case right now. But they will never get over the mental barrier. Look at Cesc, years of playing in the Arsenal team just losing to the likes of Chelsea, Manutd e.t.c. and falling short all the time, sometimes at the last hurdle leaves mental scars which do not heal very easily. All of our young players and mentally damaged. They have been in the same team for 5-6 years but mentally they are at the same level. The reason? Apart from getting use to losing they never had the likes of Vieira, Henry, Pires, Ljunberg, Bergkemp around them for long enough. They have played in a team which you would regard as an underdog when it comes to winning silverware. But at the same time there is a massive amount of pressure and expectation that they should win as they play for Arsenal FC.

The manager has unlimited amount of faith in them so they know he wont just discard them hence its easy for them to accept losing and they dont have a winning mentality.

No wonder you see us choking and collapsing. Just look at the defending in the 2-3 minutes vs Liverpool. That just sums up that despite playing in this league for almost half a decade together they still dont have the composure to deal with situations like that. They just panic because mentally they are weak and dont know what to do.
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