Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby Arsenal Tone » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:18 pm

GunnGunn wrote:I don't think they have had more bad games than good, people just remember that bad ones, more than they do the good.

Denilson is 22, hardly mid twenties, and Diaby has been bligted by injuries, including a career threatening one.


At 22, has Denilson showed even half the ability in the last three years that Wilshere is showing now? Diaby isn't the player he should have been, possibly due to those injuries, so what do you want us to do play him because we feel sorry for him? Jack is really an attacking midfielder, despite this, he offers more defensively and physically than both Denilson and Diaby who Wenger keeps telling us are 'more defensive players'.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but on current form I'd have Jack over both Denilson and Diaby.
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby GunnGunn » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:24 pm

I didn't say i would have Denilson or Diaby over him, i said our best midfield is Diaby, Fabregas and Song.

At this moment in time i would have Wilshere as well, just adding some perspective to people who constantly berate our own players and offer mind numbing praise for another...Its a case of choosing to see what you want to see...

You are missing the point i was trying to make i feel, i wasn't stating preference for either two over him...That would be stupid...

Ramsey is better than all three however IMO.
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby CynicalGooner » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:24 pm

I'm with PG on this. Any leniency shown to Jack so far has nothing to do with him being English and everything to do with his age and the simple fact that he's very good, so what exactly is there to overlook? He is the best option there from what we've got and the majority of fans are just relieved we have finally found someone decent to fill the third CM spot, if only for short term (as Jack WILL move forward eventually)

No he hasn't been perfect in every game and yes he has dropped off slightly recently, which indicates he could probably use a little rest. I'd also like to add that the game Inch mentioned where Jack gave the ball away quite a lot, he was just one of many and not even the worst offender. He gave it away 8 times and if I recall correctly Cesc did so 17 times.

His passing is a little sketchy at times but the fact is he is only just 19! Diaby is 24 and vastly more experienced, that's why it's unacceptable from him! And Jack has so much more in his locker than Denilson, he will slowly grow into the team and show what he's all about going forward. Considering Cesc was exactly the same just a couple years ago really means everyone should realise this. Cesc used to be very sloppy on occasion (still is when off form) and didn't have much end product for a couple years but his star potential was there for all to see. Don't forget that Jack scored and assisted a lot at youth level, you don't just lose that talent. It's also clear to me that he will be a big game player. In the past 18 months he has already stepped up his game 2 or 3 times and he doesn't look at all out of his depth. When we lost to Chelsea he was the best player on the pitch

GunnGunn I really can't agree that Jack goes missing, that's just not true. One of his best qualities is that he never hides, he's always battling and always wants the ball. If the teams is struggling he will always try to make something happen, it doesn't always come off but that's not the point
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby GunnGunn » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:29 pm

I don't care if you agree or not mate, its all opinions at the end of the day, and we don't often agree.

I feel you have done your long post for nowt however, seeing as i wasn't stating preference or ability over Wilshere, more the seemingly preferential treatment for him just because of his nationality, which i feel is a big issue.

It also depends on your definition of going missing? Failing to gain a foothold in a game? Being a spectator.

I agree with most of your post though, i feel he is close to being burnt out which is why he has dropped off slightly...
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby CynicalGooner » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:39 pm

Like I said, nothing to do with his nationality. If he was playing very badly and still getting away with it, you'd have a point, but he's playing well and is the best option, regardless of a mistake here or there.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, just not with Wilshere. If you want to push that agenda use Walcott as an example. He has had a lot of terrible games over the past few years and gets away with it basically because he's English.

And yes that is how I define going missing, Jack does nothing of the sort. He's always involved, for better or worse.
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby mg86 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:04 pm

Let me just say for the record, with me at the helm, I wouldn't even have Wilshere starting, nor Diaby or Denilson beside Song, Rosicky it is for me no question.

But since we are focused on debating the qualities of Wilshere to Diaby or Denilson, I think it is quite obvious that Denilson has emerged as the more useful player for us compared to Diaby. He offers much more focused passing and transition buildup from the defense to attack then Abou. His defense is better than Diaby's. In fact, Diaby offers nothing better than what our other CAM's can, because I'd have Rosicky, Nasri, Walcott or Arshavin before him anyday.

He's a good CM sub like Denilson, but if your looking at the midfield as mainly where the X's are below (excluding the outer wing/cam spots):
X X
CAM X CAM

Its gotta be a pecking order of Cesc, Song, Rosicky, Wilshere THEN Denilson or Diaby, even though I'd actually have Ramsey over Diaby.
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby Est83 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:13 pm

Best midfield is:

Song Ramsey
Cesc


But with the injury to Ramsey, you can understand the debate. Wilshere naturally belongs in Cesc's spot. Denilson isn't particularly effective at anything, he's not a game changer, just a steady Eddie. And Diaby, on form, can dominate a midfield.. but 90% of the time just dissapoints.
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby CynicalGooner » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:26 pm

Jay22 wrote:Ramsey should be picked before Wilshere when he comes back

No he should be handled with extreme care. Assuming he plays I expect him to be fairly average for at least the rest of the season and we've no right to ask for better than that. At this point in time Wilshere is ahead. In his own way Wilshere has done just as well as Ramsey did last season, but he found his feet almost immediately. If you'll remember Ramsey took a good 10 games to really look decent.
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby Goose » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:32 pm

Jack can play one, twos, he make through ball passes and he always drives forwards

Denilson and Diaby are the masters of sideways and backwards passes, Diaby is a decent dribbler, but he dawdles on the ball and is late to pass the ball to a player in space, or he runs towards them with the ball and gets closed down

Jack has already got a number of assists this season, including the pass to Song against Chelsea, which was beautlful

Against Wigan, with Diaby and Denilson playing, our midfield was being overrun, we couldnt keep posession and our attacks had no impetus, then Jack came on and changed all that

Yes, he can go missing but how many times has Denilson vanished for 60 minutes or allowed players to jog past him to score?
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby starmandb » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:00 pm

Est83 wrote:Best midfield is:

Song Ramsey
Cesc


But with the injury to Ramsey, you can understand the debate. Wilshere naturally belongs in Cesc's spot. Denilson isn't particularly effective at anything, he's not a game changer, just a steady Eddie. And Diaby, on form, can dominate a midfield.. but 90% of the time just dissapoints.

he changed the game at villa 2 years ago mate
we were right under the cosh until denilson scored
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby ProudGooner » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:21 pm

Wilshere is what we need. I agree with PG that he is forgiven for making mistakes because he is young. Ok maybe being english is also a factor but its not the main factor.

Look at Clichy, he gets forgiven mistakes he aint english. For years i have said we need someone nasty in midfield. We do, we need someone with passion. Our players lack passion, they just like to show off their football skills. Wilshere is a pure winner, he dooest care how he plays he wants to win.

When our second goal went in yesterday look at the reaction of all of our players and you will see wilshere with the most passion. Look at when RVP missed that sitter Wilshere put his hands on his head with anger and frustration no one else did.

We need this in midfield.
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby ProudGooner » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Id rather play Arshavin in midfield than Diaby - Denilson
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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby CynicalGooner » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:38 pm

ProudGooner wrote:Id rather play Arshavin in midfield than Diaby - Denilson

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Re: Birmingham Vs Arsenal 01/01/11

Postby starmandb » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:38 pm

some musings in reply to a few comments doing the rounds post wigan pre birmingham in the arsenal community.
i must stress not on here
i prefer to post on here as there is a measure that allows the toys to remain in the pram
[zigic will rape[what a disgusting phrase to use in a football context]fabianski and score a hattrick standing still..
the only sexual content was from the foul mouth of the wretched bowyer as he made way for soon to be hattrick hero zigic.
our defence are worse than both of our last 2 title winning sides?
this may carry some weight in comparison to the invicibles but our currant crop have conceded 22 goals in comparison to the 24 conceded by our 01/02 double winners at the same stage
why did we rest so many at wigan when man utd and chelsea did,nt?
well utd made 1 change at birmingham and drew and chelsea made 4 changes for the bolton game having lost at the emirates so by my reckoning we had a better return even before our birmingham game.
i do believe 8 changes was a mistake but i,m not in full veiw of the facts like mr wenger so have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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