Group D

Qualification and finally the tournament itself in Poland and Ukraine. All talk about it in here including live match chat.

Re: Group D

Postby starmandb » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:21 am

Plymouth Gooner wrote:Re Arsh

34

Can you think of a worst england squad?

Can you think of a better performance at a major tournament (wc90 is the only one i can think of)

did just as well in the group stages at euro 96 and world cup 2006
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Re: Group D

Postby Yorkyblue » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:26 am

I'm really surprised people want to drop Milner, especially for Theo. If that happened, Johnson would get raped. Roy isn't looking for an attacking right winger (which is why he's playing a central defensive midfielder on the right). Theo is a great option when things aren't going right and we need to take risks.

As I said in the other thread. I'm in no way saying Milner is a great right winger. He just fits this system better than anyone else in the squad.
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Re: Group D

Postby Trequartista » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:32 am

I agree Yorky, he is a very unglamorous player, especially out on the right but he works his arse off for the team and is clearly playing a role specifically devised for him by Hodgeson. People slating his performances dont seem to understand his role in the side. That said, I belive playing The Ox would be a much bigger offensive threat without sacrificing too much defensive capacity (could be usefull in pinning back their LWB if they play 3-5-2), especially against Italy where he is rated very very highly afer his performance against AC Meelan where he really ran the show in midfield.
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Re: Group D

Postby Est83 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:59 am

I get the work-rate argument, not that Theo is lazy in tracking back!

But what have England been lacking? Graft or attacking play?




... EXACTLY!

Milner is a new level of awful when it comes to his attacking play. It wouldn't matter so much if speedy hunchback bean-head mug Ashley Young was actually on form and offering a half decent outlet for the defence, but no! both wingers have been shit and completely innefective! England's best two wingers are Theo and Ox.

Ox tackles, he loves to get stuck in, but his defensive positioning isn't exactly a strong point. So I see an argument for keeping him out of the starting lineup in order to keep shape. But Theo is always tracking back, and he would have done a much better job on the left than Young who thought it'd be fun to give Ukraine's overlapping right full back all the time in the world drag Cole out of position.

I understand that we're playing to our strangths under Woy, keeping shape, staying disciplined, remaining hard to beat. But I'd rather not play for penalties from the off! More of an attacking threat is needed.
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Re: Group D

Postby Arsenal~Fanatic » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:08 pm

Isn't it funny how players get branded not good enough to start based on some baseless theories propagated by xyz. Now Theo might not be the best player outright on the right wing in general but he is a zillion times better than the toothless Milner.

People saying here Theo doesn't work hard enough on the pitch, Really ? People talk as though he stands there and watches his team's right back getting raped munching popcorn. Theo is fast, energetic and yes he does track back and defend. O.K he may not show the same tenacity as AOC defensively but to say he just loiters around when he does not have the ball is laughable.

England have always got r*ped in big tournaments cos forget the whole world they themselves consider themselves as underdogs. They decide even before they step on to the pitch that they need to defend from kickoff till the final whistle. Sweden comfortably defeated France and here we have people saying how they need to step on the pitch with toothless pussies like Milner who is a liability offensively. A bench warmer at City being preferred to a bloke who scored and assisted in double digits with pace to burn.

I think England are good enough to beat Italy on merit and i mean it. Put Walcott on the right, AOC on the left with Rooney and Welbeck, and i will tell they can send scares among any top team. Why does Ashley Young have a permanent spot irrespective of anything ? The central midfield of Gerrard and Parker with Theo and AOC on the wings supplying Rooney and Welbeck can give a fight to any top team imo.

England will not win this game by being defensive pussies from kick off. They need to take the game to the Italians. They have a top keeper in Hart and it is only their back-line with Terry's aging legs being a worry imo.
Last edited by Arsenal~Fanatic on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Group D

Postby Yorkyblue » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:09 pm

I want us to carry on doing what Roy is doing and want us to concentrate on what we're doing rather than change things and go for something else. It's working so I don't see reason to think we should attempt to be stronger attacking.
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Re: Group D

Postby Trequartista » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:11 pm

I think I am largely in agreement with you Est. We need to retain our defensive shape whilst at the same time develop an attacking threat worthy of the name. Therefore I would not be adverse to throwing Theo or Ox into the mix. As long as they track back, I dont think Milner will be missed too badly since our game is based less on tackling and more on crowding out our opponants in our own third of the pitch.

I'd like to see Carroll start to offer an outball to give knock downs to Rooney (hopefully much sharper on Sunday) who can pick out Theo or Young making penetrating runs behind the defence.

All I was trying to say really was that Milner had been given a task by Hodgeson and he has done it very well IMO, i dont think attacking was ever meant to be part of his repetoir so he shouldn't be slated for lack of adventure.
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Re: Group D

Postby Yorkyblue » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:13 pm

Arsenal~Fanatic wrote:Isn't it funny how players get branded not good enough to start based on some baseless theories propagated by xyz. Now Theo might not be the best player outright on the right wing in general but he is a zillion times better than the toothless Milner.

People saying here Theo doesn't work hard enough on the pitch, Really ? People talk as though he stands there and watches his team's right back getting raped munching popcorn. Theo is fast, energetic and yes he does track back and defend. O.K he may not show the same tenacity as AOC defensively but to say he just loiters around when he does not have the ball is laughable.

England have always got r*ped in big tournaments cos forget the whole world they themselves consider themselves as underdogs. They decide even before they step on to the pitch that they need to defend from kickoff till the final whistle. Sweden comfortably defeated France and here we have people saying how they need to step on the pitch with toothless pussies like Milner who is a liability offensively. A bench warmer at City being preferred to a bloke who scored and assisted in double digits with pace to burn.

I think England are good enough to beat France on merit and i mean it especially with the all the noise of dressing room troubles in the French team. Put Walcott on the right AOC on the left with Rooney and Welbeck, and i will tell they can send scares among any top team. Why does Ashley Young have a permanent spot irrespective of anything ? The central midfield of Gerrard and Parker with Theo and AOC on the wings supplying Rooney and Welbeck can give a fight to any top team imo.

England will not win this game by being defensive pussies from kick off. They need to take the game to the French. I am more than confident Walcott will tear a new one for ''let the ball bounce'' Clichy. They have a top keeper in Hart and it is only their back-line with Terry's aging legs being a worry imo.


Have you gone back in time or something?
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Re: Group D

Postby Arsenal~Fanatic » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:17 pm

Yorkyblue wrote:
Arsenal~Fanatic wrote:Isn't it funny how players get branded not good enough to start based on some baseless theories propagated by xyz. Now Theo might not be the best player outright on the right wing in general but he is a zillion times better than the toothless Milner.

People saying here Theo doesn't work hard enough on the pitch, Really ? People talk as though he stands there and watches his team's right back getting raped munching popcorn. Theo is fast, energetic and yes he does track back and defend. O.K he may not show the same tenacity as AOC defensively but to say he just loiters around when he does not have the ball is laughable.

England have always got r*ped in big tournaments cos forget the whole world they themselves consider themselves as underdogs. They decide even before they step on to the pitch that they need to defend from kickoff till the final whistle. Sweden comfortably defeated France and here we have people saying how they need to step on the pitch with toothless pussies like Milner who is a liability offensively. A bench warmer at City being preferred to a bloke who scored and assisted in double digits with pace to burn.

I think England are good enough to beat France on merit and i mean it especially with the all the noise of dressing room troubles in the French team. Put Walcott on the right AOC on the left with Rooney and Welbeck, and i will tell they can send scares among any top team. Why does Ashley Young have a permanent spot irrespective of anything ? The central midfield of Gerrard and Parker with Theo and AOC on the wings supplying Rooney and Welbeck can give a fight to any top team imo.

England will not win this game by being defensive pussies from kick off. They need to take the game to the French. I am more than confident Walcott will tear a new one for ''let the ball bounce'' Clichy. They have a top keeper in Hart and it is only their back-line with Terry's aging legs being a worry imo.


Have you gone back in time or something?


I edited yorky.. always though england were taking on France for some reason lol.
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Re: Group D

Postby Est83 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:23 pm

Yorkyblue wrote:I want us to carry on doing what Roy is doing and want us to concentrate on what we're doing rather than change things and go for something else. It's working so I don't see reason to think we should attempt to be stronger attacking.


We're not creating enough though. We're lucky that we've been able to convert a handful of the chances we have created, but we won't be so lucky against better opposition.

I don't want major changes, just a little more attacking intent.

Theo will run all day and get up and down the flanks for fun. I think the only reason he's not entrusted with a starting spot is because of the threat he carries from the bench... but it'd be nice not to have to bring him on just because we're a goal down.
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Re: Group D

Postby ThereIsBearCüm » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:23 pm

Yorkyblue wrote:
Arsenal~Fanatic wrote:Isn't it funny how players get branded not good enough to start based on some baseless theories propagated by xyz. Now Theo might not be the best player outright on the right wing in general but he is a zillion times better than the toothless Milner.

People saying here Theo doesn't work hard enough on the pitch, Really ? People talk as though he stands there and watches his team's right back getting raped munching popcorn. Theo is fast, energetic and yes he does track back and defend. O.K he may not show the same tenacity as AOC defensively but to say he just loiters around when he does not have the ball is laughable.

England have always got r*ped in big tournaments cos forget the whole world they themselves consider themselves as underdogs. They decide even before they step on to the pitch that they need to defend from kickoff till the final whistle. Sweden comfortably defeated France and here we have people saying how they need to step on the pitch with toothless pussies like Milner who is a liability offensively. A bench warmer at City being preferred to a bloke who scored and assisted in double digits with pace to burn.

I think England are good enough to beat France on merit and i mean it especially with the all the noise of dressing room troubles in the French team. Put Walcott on the right AOC on the left with Rooney and Welbeck, and i will tell they can send scares among any top team. Why does Ashley Young have a permanent spot irrespective of anything ? The central midfield of Gerrard and Parker with Theo and AOC on the wings supplying Rooney and Welbeck can give a fight to any top team imo.

England will not win this game by being defensive pussies from kick off. They need to take the game to the French. I am more than confident Walcott will tear a new one for ''let the ball bounce'' Clichy. They have a top keeper in Hart and it is only their back-line with Terry's aging legs being a worry imo.


Have you gone back in time or something?


:lol:
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Re: Group D

Postby Est83 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:28 pm

And on the same argument of not changing things... how is Young worth a starting spot?

He was a hindrance to our shape against Ukraine.

They're both offering nothing going forward, like I said, but Young isn't even helping with the core tactics of the team... like he's playing a different game altogether.
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Re: Group D

Postby Est83 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:30 pm

I agree with pretty much all your arguments there AF... but seriously, where have you been? :scratch:

You feeling ok?

;)
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Re: Group D

Postby Trequartista » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:38 pm

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06/20/ ... agey-game/

I think this analysis by ZonalMarking shows well how we are most certainly not playing with wingers, rather 4 midfielders, the widest of which are tucking in very centrally at times and operating very deep. Young is clearly designed to be our primary attacking outlet from wide positions in which he has failed and as mentioned, has been very cagey in defence too. Milner on the other hand is essentially just another CM played just outside the midfield pivot of Parker and Gerrard and had been doing his job well. If we want to switch up our wide men, Young should be dropped.
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Re: Group D

Postby Yorkyblue » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:19 pm

Trequartista wrote:http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/06/20/england-1-0-ukraine-cagey-game/

I think this analysis by ZonalMarking shows well how we are most certainly not playing with wingers, rather 4 midfielders, the widest of which are tucking in very centrally at times and operating very deep. Young is clearly designed to be our primary attacking outlet from wide positions in which he has failed and as mentioned, has been very cagey in defence too. Milner on the other hand is essentially just another CM played just outside the midfield pivot of Parker and Gerrard and had been doing his job well. If we want to switch up our wide men, Young should be dropped.


Yep this.

Young would be decent to bring off the bench as well to change things if it isn't going right.
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