In the news today...

[DiamondGooner]

But systemic racism is a falsehood simply because by definition that was eliminated by law.

viewtopic.php?p=1804837#p1804837

Yeah I don't agree with that tbf.

Systematic racism is still present because elected officials and law makers / law enforcement refuse to enact those laws and rights protecting citizens.

Now where I think classism is probably a worse diesease than racism, it is still in America white men in power moving the pieces on the board, they owe all American citizens under their watch the same level as protection by law as Rupert III (who we know gets special treatment).

Someone has to push the button on rights to actually enforce them and I've seen over and over again Police Chiefs, Police unions, Governors, Mayors and States Attorney's refuse to act or force change.

Whether its racism, classism or any form of bias the fact is there is a systemic refusal to protect American citizens from abusive and killer cops.

Now you know I'm not one for the "Moaning" or "Victimhood" culture, I can't think of anything more self destructive than telling a race of people "You are superior and I need babying" because that's effectively what BLM are doing, they're begging white people.
But not being protected from State employees who are given the authority to have your life and rights in their hands not being brought to justice is wrong.

If the establishment are not going to back citizens to defend themselves against corrupt police then they better punish those who abuse their authority.

[Pat Rice in Short Shorts]

Systematic racism is still present because elected officials and law makers / law enforcement refuse to enact those laws and rights protecting citizens.

Firstly we need to agree on the definition of systemic. Like I said it is not applicable because the system is not racist as whole, we have a multitude of laws and acts of Congress that ensures that is not the case. Secondly if there are instances of officials not following the laws then that falls under individual malfeasance. Once again, we need to look at each case individually not a blanket assumption that laws are not being followed or enforced. The media and others portray many situations as racist when they may not be. For instance the Brooks killing which you agree was justified is being treated as an instance of police brutality and racism. Even the George Floyd killing may or may not have been racially motivated. We know now that the two men had a history of mutual dislike stemming from working together at a club as bouncers. He was murdered no doubt...but do we really know the motivation? Yes more blacks are incarcerated and for longer than Whites or Asians in the US, but then blacks statistically commit more crimes and have much higher occurrence of re-offending which mandate longer sentences. I may be dead wrong, but there are always underlying facts that are not considered because it is too easy to simply make assumptions based on superficial evidence. Like in science the root causes need to be identified before a conclusion can be made...especially when there are organizations and the media pushing an agenda.

Now where I think classism is probably a worse diesease than racism, it is still in America white men in power moving the pieces on the board, they owe all American citizens under their watch the same level as protection by law as Rupert III (who we know gets special treatment).

I agree on classism. I also agree there is a ruling class in government that gets special treatment in all countries if we are honest. This is the "swamp" or "deep state" that Trump is trying to drain, and it is why he is being so fiercely opposed to the point they have attempted the silent coup. There is a pipeline of privilege that flows from Harvard (Obama) and Yale(Bush) just as happens in the UK from Eton and then Oxford.

As for white men in power that is simply not the case in the cities in question. Nearly all of the mayors are black and many are black women. These cities have been Dem controlled for decades. They control the policing, they are the Attorney Generals, they control the funding and the policies. "White men in power" in these trouble spots is another stereotype that the agenda requires people blindly swallow.

Someone has to push the button on rights to actually enforce them and I've seen over and over again Police Chiefs, Police unions, Governors, Mayors and States Attorney's refuse to act or force change.

Once again,,,individual cases that may or may not be accurate. Just because some groups do not like how laws must be enforced (ie the same civil protections apply to both sides, our system provides for the assumption of innocence until proven guilty.

[DiamondGooner]

But that's the issue.

Yes the laws are not systemically racist, everyone is equal under the law ......... but in practice someone in a position of authority has to enact and enforce those laws otherwise they're next to worthless, and that's my problem with the USA at the moment.

I've seen countless videos of Police over there abusing peoples rights, I've seen videos of unarmed men being shot dead, not only are these unlawful killings because believe it or not the police only have the authority to shoot armed criminals posing a threat ............. they're not authorized to mow down the general public at will.

Yet not only are some of them actually killing civilians without cause, no one is holding them to account under law.

How did Eric Garner's killer cop get away with just losing his job? it was no different to George Floyd yet that cop is getting charged with 2nd degree murder ...........

So, identical instances, ones murder the other just loses his job.

There is no consistency in your laws and so its rendering those laws next to useless.

Basically the laws only protect citizens when someone in power feels like it.

Whether its the Mayor, States Attorney, Attorney General, the Governor or a Judge, if someone doesn't push the button on justice then the law is useless.

In England we don't have States so things are more uniform, all Police in the UK are employees of the Government and so policy is universal.

[Rockape]

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/93 ... ils-to-win

W****rs!

[Pat Rice in Short Shorts]

But that's the issue.

Yes the laws are not systemically racist, everyone is equal under the law ......... but in practice someone in a position of authority has to enact and enforce those laws otherwise they're next to worthless, and that's my problem with the USA at the moment.

But look at [i]who[/i] is in authority and who is charged with enforcing the laws. It is not white men, it is usually black women or men elected into leadership positions in their respective communities. When there are instances of police brutality and the local officials fail to act then the Feds come in under civil rights law. That is how the Aubrey killers (not cops) were charged. It was also how Ferguson was handled when Obama and the mob decided that the locals were not going to charge the cop so he would...except his DOJ concluded that Brown did indeed attack the officer and the shooting was justified.

If you dig a bit you will find that nearly all the violent crime and thus police shootings are concentrated in very specific areas. Namely inner cities and other places with high levels of poverty and drug use.

This a synopsis of crime in the US based on the latest DOJ data. There are online maps of the entire US by county showing crime rates as well.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... /40968963/

If we take my state of Montana for instance the violent crime is concentrated on Indian Reservations or in cities like Billings where Native Americans often live or work off the res. The same for New Mexico, North Dakota, Wyoming and other states with high indigenous populations. We have a massive problem with Indian on Indian violence that is being addressed as best it can through task forces etc but the core issue is poverty and drugs, despite massive investment in social programs etc. In other states with high black populations it is the cities where the problems are worse. NJ is a very rich state, with Wall Street Folks and the like living in nice neighborhoods and big homes...and low crime rates. The inner cities like Camden are just f***ing dangerous for anyone.

The point is that 95% of the US is very safe and very friendly to all. It is the same in the UK, some areas are no go zones, most of the country is safe (unless you are Ozil).

I've seen countless videos of Police over there abusing peoples rights, I've seen videos of unarmed men being shot dead, not only are these unlawful killings because believe it or not the police only have the authority to shoot armed criminals posing a threat ............. they're not authorized to mow down the general public at will. Yet not only are some of them actually killing civilians without cause, no one is holding them to account under law.

That is an exaggeration given their are only about 30 of those instances a year in the US, and 66% involve white victims, and nearly all of those cases are found to be justified. Each one must be looked at individually. Are there instances of police brutality that go unpunished? Certainly, more than should. Is it common, no.

From a cop's standpoint they know where the danger will be coming from 90% of the time. That leads to "profiling" of sorts, but I assume you have been in some tough spots in rough areas of London and have had your head on a swivel too. I know that in combat that is case. It keeps you alive. Cops get paid rather little but they are a dedicated bunch. 87% are ex military where we have to trust our brothers no matter the race. That carries over into the rest of our lives as we maintain friends of all stripes. So if a cop shoots first out of instinct or a perceived threat he or she at least gets to go home that night. They are put on administrative duty while they are investigated, if found criminally liable they are referred for charges. I doubt many cops want to kill another human being, it sucks and it stays with you forever the legal consequences be damned.

Garner killer, I have no idea how he got off scott free. We need to ask De Blasio and Cuomo about that one. A man get killed for selling ciggies. Utterly horrific.

There is no consistency in your laws and so its rendering those laws next to useless.

Basically the laws only protect citizens when someone in power feels like it.

Whether its the Mayor, States Attorney, Attorney General, the Governor or a Judge, if someone doesn't push the button on justice then the law is useless.

Laws are pretty much the same across the states, with sentencing differences (capital punishment or not for instance). Red states tend to have more strict laws and enforcement while red states are more lenient. Federal law is the same everyplace. I am totally against the "no knock" warrants. That is where many of the bad shootings do occur. I am also against banning choke holds arbitrarily because if you are in fight for your life that will save save you. That is pretty basic training for military and cops alike. Perhaps they could specify they be used only in self defence as is in Sen Scott's bill. I am all for body cams because bad cops will be more reluctant to abuse someone, and they will also clear many cops who are wrongly accused.

Like I said, look first at who is running a state or city. Then ask why local officials who control the police are so quick to blame the Feds. Because they are politicians who refuse to take responsibility. They are the ones that can mandate body cams. They are the ones who institute community policing and interface.

Just because someone is charged and gets off does not mean that justice is not done. A jury decides the case. OJ Simpson was guilty as hell in my book and he walked. Racist or race friendly juries are nothing new but they occur on both sides. The Constitution is very careful to guard against convicting innocent men, it directs that the burden be squarely on the prosecution and it is better to let a guilty man walk than imprison an innocent person. Once again, are there instances of the innocent found guilty...sure. Are there instances of under or over charging? Sure. It is not perfect.

In England we don't have States so things are more uniform, all Police in the UK are employees of the Government and so policy is universal.

Yup but there are bad cops and bent prosecutions there as well no doubt. As the UK gangs and criminals get more and more illegal guns it will get worse there too sadly. Knifings are bad enough.

I think you like many have a slightly skewed view of how things are here though. The media are bunch of ambulance chasers who cheer for the bad news and if there is not enough of that they make some up. I am not denying that there are some really f***ked up situations but most are not what they seem when the rocks are turned over.

[Yorkyblue]

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/9390/paddy-power-vows-to-plant-6000-trees-every-time-arsenal-fails-to-win

W****rs!

Am I missing something? It's fantastic. Win/Lose/Draw and plenty of trees!

[Pat Rice in Short Shorts]

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/9390/paddy-power-vows-to-plant-6000-trees-every-time-arsenal-fails-to-win

W****rs!

Am I missing something? It's fantastic. Win/Lose/Draw and plenty of trees!

I wonder where he is going to plant them all?

Moorland is being destroyed by pine plantations already.

[theHotHead]

This is an example of what this BLM nonsense leads to.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... -violence/

Phil what the hell does that have to do with BLM ? You cannot just associate everything that happens regarding black people as being linked with BLM. anyone with half a brain cell knows that going to Brixton, Peckham, Wembley, Hackney, Harlesden, Tottenham, Ladbroke Grove, any areas with dense Afro-Caribbean population and a history of bad relations with the police would end in a mini riot. It has f**k all to do with BLM.

[theHotHead]

it just shows you don't understand at all, or are just a bigot.

Huh???????????????????


A bigot eh? I don't understand it? Sorry but you can f**k right off with that sort of ignorant insinuation.


I could say that you don't seem to give a f**k about the thousands of black lives that are needlessly lost due to decades of corrupt liberal leadership, family disintegration or that you have a utterly intolerant stance on other's religious views...so perhaps YOU are a bigot. See how that works? Be careful when chucking stones in glass houses.

If you don't know anything about Shaun King or the rest of BLM leadership perhaps you should educate yourself before defending them and their stances? I do know all about them and have for years. Educate yourself then preach.

I swear you take everything so far out of context, do you know how to have an adult conversation? Did I call you a bigot? I said either you don't understand or you are a bigot. So which is it? It sounds like you just don't understand or don't want to, if it's anything further then you're probably a bigot. But I don't know, you tell me. And why would I support an ideology that condemns everyone that doesn't support to hell? Religion in itself is bigotry at the highest level. Not the people that practice it, but the rules and guidelines that govern it are.

And you keep wanting to bring up black on black crime, but is that the issue right now? No it's not, and for your very particular hard head, they do protest over black on black crime, in fact they had one here in St. Louis last year, heck they have one every year, but your Fox news channel would never report that.

To be honest I am so fed up of hearing about the black on black crime counter argument. So what, black people killing black people concerns black people only! But white people prejudicing black folk and stopping them from progressing is real and needs to stop, as does excessive police brutality biased toward black people, these things are OUT OF OUR HANDS and should not be happening.

[theHotHead]

Nah, you gotta come here HH. You can't take sensationalized news and random clips on the internet as gospel truth. I say this as a mixed guy (although the black half of my family and my black friends say the same), it's really not that bad, even now.

Yeah, there is systemic racism, but if you're just a tourist, you won't really encounter it. And unless you go to some hick town with a single stoplight in Bumblefuck, Nowhere, there's an extremely low chance you'll encounter blatant outward racism like you did in Europe. Calling someone Kunta Kinte here is a real good way to get your ass beat or get filmed and have your life ruined.

.......... that's what I thought.

HH's Kunta Kinte stories if anything prove my point, your finding out and out hostility toward you from some sections just because your black, I doubt if you walk around in America you'd get picked on after hours with names like that.

Maybe if your in the Redneck areas you might get something similar or funny looks but any mainstream area I doubt you'd get that at all like LMAO said.

Apart from the Police what bit about America scares you?

Myself I'd be more comfortable in America all day long rather than a back street in Russia or Serbia.

The guns. If you live out there I guess it becomes no thing and you don't think about it, but coming from England where you know its only gangsters and bad boys that have guns, I don't need to worry about it cos I don't mix too closely with those people. Its a personal thing, perhaps because I have spent so much time in Eastern Europe I don't have any/much fear. If I asked my mates they would absolutely be more terrified of going to Eastern Europe as black men than the US because they have never been to Eastern Europe but have heard about the racism.

[theHotHead]

People of all creeds & colours have it absolutely equal in the UK.

Most of what's going on at the moment is white people in the media going overboard with their support for BLM to secure their own future in the media PC bubble...look at me... I'm PC... give me a new contract, and companies plugging their brands by saying look at us - we support BLM, we're great, buy our products.

It's also encouraging people to run riot and break the law because they are apparently so oppressed.

Mate that is naive beyond belief. There is institutionalised racism in the UK 100%. Now whilst I hardly ever call racism on anything and I hate it when people call racism when its clear there was none - I am not blind to the fact that there are others less fortunate than me who will be targeted because they are black. I personally do not believe racism has affected my progress and my career, but I am not going to sit here and say in the UK it is equal for everyone because I know full well that it isn't.

[theHotHead]

This all lives matter counter statement is total nonsense and I daresay repeated by those who feel left out. This is about black people being treated equally, simple as that.

Treated equally in what way?

Its one thing saying this to a white person but what about myself who's half Arabic, or anyone else who's not white?

Are you saying black people have it worse than lets say Pakistani's or Chinese? is there a mass protest everytime someone was called a P*ki? or a ch*nk?

There's a huge amount of side eye going to come out of all this.

Dejan is 4'8ft and Asian if anyone has a strong victim card its him, but you don't see him throwing that around all over the shop, its about self respect ffs.

How come I don't have to say this to any other minority? whether its Mexican, Asian, Mid East, Turkish wherever, whoever.

Nobody else is out here begging for white peoples attention, its fking embarrasing.

Yes the police brutallity thing in America, I'll agree all the way, but the rest of it, jesus christ give it a rest!

Mate, nobody is mass protesting because a black person got called a name FFS. Stupid argument, not even going to waste my time on a longer response.

[Rockape]

I have no doubt there is discrimination to black people in the UK. But I too have suffered discrimination, as have a lot of other people like me. I still recall being invited for an interview in a City firm, (having been a bit vague on my CV). Once they discovered I hadn't gone to the right school, they ushered me out as soon as was respectfully possible. That was 35 years ago and I doubt much has changed.

There is discrimination at every level of society, black, white, working class, middle class....I could give many more examples but that was one I remembered very well.

Its easy to discriminate to be fair......for example, if someone applied for a sales job in my company and they turned up with tats up their neck and over their hands, I'd immediately think that was not someone I wanted to represent me.

[theHotHead]

I'm sorry that you just don't understand what the movement is about, it's not about offending people, it's about treating people equally, and American has a horrible history of not doing that to all minorities, those are facts. Again, you take the negative that they say or do and paint the whole movement with the same brush and think that the overall message is wrong. I don't agree with everything they say or do, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with the overall message. Just like I'm sure you don't agree with everything that Trump says or does, but you still support him overall. It's just about equality and justice. I don't see why that is so hard to understand? The overall argument gets lost with these petty little side arguments that rise up during the main discussion. I've said many times, I don't agree with how this is all going down and being handled, but I'm rational enough to realize that the bad elements of the movement don't change the overall message. Too many people just wanna take the side of their already held political view, it's possible not to agree with the right or the left, it's possible to have rational opinions that fall toward the middle of the spectrum. It's possible to agree with a movement and it's message, and still not agree with every aspect of how its handled. It's called being rational and reasonable.

This. I too am at a loss as to how so many people are struggling to get this point

[Rockape]

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/9390/paddy-power-vows-to-plant-6000-trees-every-time-arsenal-fails-to-win

W****rs!

Am I missing something? It's fantastic. Win/Lose/Draw and plenty of trees!

I wonder where he is going to plant them all?

Moorland is being destroyed by pine plantations already.

Well if you put it like that!

We need to planting many more trees on verges in towns, as councils have (in the past)systematically chopped them down to avoid the upkeep costs