Interesting read on Denilson...

Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby GunnGunn » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:30 pm

Denilson: brilliant or a waste of space?


Jonanthan Brown wrote to me directly, rather than via the blog, on the issue of Denilson, and I would like to pass on his thoughts.



To declare my position: I think Denilson is a sensation, but that he suffers as Gilberto did in the fans’ eyes. If you remember, Gilberto was often thought to be the weak link in the team - until he had a year out with the back injury. When he came back the roar was huge - everyone suddenly realised what we had been missing. The “invisible wall” really was fundamental to the way the team worked.



So it seems to me it is with Denilson. But now it is not just my word for it.

Jonathan has searched the Actim Index stats page - the stats used by the Premiership to grade players. Under the midfielders tag we find Denilson lying in 6th place with 230 points, behind Lampard, Ashley Young, Gareth Barry, Stephen Ireland and Mike Arteta.



As Jonathan says, “By my reckoning this makes Denilson the second best defensive midfielder behind Gareth Barry.”



This is confirmed by the Guardians Fantasy Football stats that has Denilson as the best Defensive Midfielder with 277 points. Played 19 games with 3 goals, 5 assists, 71 interceptions, 11 clearances, 56 tackles won.



I am not suggesting anyone who is a convinced anti-Denilson person will be persuaded – but for anyone who has watched the game and thought, hang on, there is more to Denilson than meets the eye, you will find the stats are with you.



Which raises the question – given that the Lord Wenger has said he will buy someone to play in midfield, the issue is, what will the new midfield look like? My suggestion is that Denilson will stay, and we will have someone in who can play alongside him, or replace Denilson in the event of an injury, thus giving us the midfield of Nasri, Newman, Denilson, Diaby or Eboue or Walcott or Rosicky.


http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/2008/1 ... -of-space/

I don't know what to make of this to be perfectly honest, Denilson IMO, is a superb talent, but has had some god awful games this season, yet according to these statistics, as Defensive Mids go, he is one of the best in the League :think:
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby Inchpräctice » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:46 pm

Wenger is an avid reader of all these stats and it wouldn't surprise me if he kept Denilson in the side partially because his stats are higher than Song's.

My take on Denilson hasn't changed though. He's a great player but he's an AM and NOT a DM.
The fact that he's done well this season when he's being asked to play a different role shows his versatility and his willingness to learn.
Even though he's been superb in some games I'd still rather see him sit on the bench in favour of an experienced proper DM.

He's not title-winning quality yet, not when he's playing as a DM and his age means he's too inconsistent to start every game imo.
If it were up to me I'd start him whilst Cesc is injured and let him do what he does best (i.e. attack) but put a proper older DM behind him to protect the back four.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby GunnGunn » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:52 pm

Just about summed up my feelings on the matter Inch, great talent, but not title winning material yet, and IMO its not fair on Denilson to have the burden of midfield holder on his shoulders at 20 years old when before this season he barely played at all.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby the real gooner » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:11 pm

gunngunn wrote:
Denilson: brilliant or a waste of space?


Jonanthan Brown wrote to me directly, rather than via the blog, on the issue of Denilson, and I would like to pass on his thoughts.



To declare my position: I think Denilson is a sensation, but that he suffers as Gilberto did in the fans’ eyes. If you remember, Gilberto was often thought to be the weak link in the team - until he had a year out with the back injury. When he came back the roar was huge - everyone suddenly realised what we had been missing. The “invisible wall” really was fundamental to the way the team worked.



So it seems to me it is with Denilson. But now it is not just my word for it.

Jonathan has searched the Actim Index stats page - the stats used by the Premiership to grade players. Under the midfielders tag we find Denilson lying in 6th place with 230 points, behind Lampard, Ashley Young, Gareth Barry, Stephen Ireland and Mike Arteta.



As Jonathan says, “By my reckoning this makes Denilson the second best defensive midfielder behind Gareth Barry.”



This is confirmed by the Guardians Fantasy Football stats that has Denilson as the best Defensive Midfielder with 277 points. Played 19 games with 3 goals, 5 assists, 71 interceptions, 11 clearances, 56 tackles won.



I am not suggesting anyone who is a convinced anti-Denilson person will be persuaded – but for anyone who has watched the game and thought, hang on, there is more to Denilson than meets the eye, you will find the stats are with you.



Which raises the question – given that the Lord Wenger has said he will buy someone to play in midfield, the issue is, what will the new midfield look like? My suggestion is that Denilson will stay, and we will have someone in who can play alongside him, or replace Denilson in the event of an injury, thus giving us the midfield of Nasri, Newman, Denilson, Diaby or Eboue or Walcott or Rosicky.


http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/2008/1 ... -of-space/

I don't know what to make of this to be perfectly honest, Denilson IMO, is a superb talent, but has had some god awful games this season, yet according to these statistics, as Defensive Mids go, he is one of the best in the League :think:


"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is part of a phrase attributed to Benjamin Disraeli and popularised in the United States by Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." The statement refers to the persuasive power of numbers, the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments, and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby damo1583 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:38 pm

Statistics are like the mini skirt.......... they give you a good idea, but never the full picture...........
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby GunnGunn » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:40 pm

damo1583 wrote:Statistics are like the mini skirt.......... they give you a good idea, but never the full picture...........


Depends how mini to be honest.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby Libertine » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:46 pm

As i've said since the start of the season, i really like Denilson.
I think he gets dug out after an adequate game, when more 'popular' players get forgiven for a poor performance.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby sithlordwebb72 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:57 pm

yeah these stats are impressive but do they take into account the time when he is coaght out of position costing us goals and therefore points?
It makes little difference if he makes 100, 1000 interceptions in a match, if he misses the 1 vital goal ball we dont get the points. tbh im not a fan of either Barry or Denilson but the stats r provin me wrong so what do i know?
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby Bristol_Gunner » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:43 pm

with denilson i belive he has alot of talent but sometimes he can give the ball away cheeply, as can alot of the arsenal players atm.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby Cheese » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:48 pm

I did tip Denilson to be a future Captain of Arsenal, and i stand by that.

I do feel first team football has come one season to early for him though.

But i'm happy with his performances thus far.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby GunnGunn » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:18 pm

All_Arsenal_1886 wrote:I did tip Denilson to be a future Captain of Arsenal, and i stand by that.

I do feel first team football has come one season to early for him though.

But i'm happy with his performances thus far.


He does look like he could be Captain one day, but he is too quiet for my liking, he needs to get a bit meaner, and for the love of god he needs to stop doing 360's whenever he gets the ball, its driving me barmy!!
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby Inchpräctice » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:39 am

sithlordwebb72 wrote:yeah these stats are impressive but do they take into account the time when he is coaght out of position costing us goals and therefore points?
It makes little difference if he makes 100, 1000 interceptions in a match, if he misses the 1 vital goal ball we dont get the points. tbh im not a fan of either Barry or Denilson but the stats r provin me wrong so what do i know?

I don't think that the stats prove you wrong as they only tell half the story.
You can complete 98% of your passes but if they're all back to the GK then that's not as impressive as it sounds.
The stats don't tell you that Denilson hasn't protected the back four as much as he could or that he needs more experience.

Libertine wrote:As i've said since the start of the season, i really like Denilson.
I think he gets dug out after an adequate game, when more 'popular' players get forgiven for a poor performance.

Yeah don't get me started on the 'popularity' of players. Some of them get away with murder - just because you happen to have bought the shirt with their name on doesn't mean they don't have bad games.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby kuwaitster » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:51 am

denilson is a great player no doubt, a pundit said on tv once, 86 % of his passes are complete. great right ?
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby Fabby » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:49 am

gunngunn wrote:
All_Arsenal_1886 wrote:I did tip Denilson to be a future Captain of Arsenal, and i stand by that.

I do feel first team football has come one season to early for him though.

But i'm happy with his performances thus far.


He does look like he could be Captain one day, but he is too quiet for my liking, he needs to get a bit meaner, and for the love of god he needs to stop doing 360's whenever he gets the ball, its driving me barmy!!


Haha I know what you mean, but one thing I have noticed about him. If we break down an attack (ever) and Denilson picks up the ball on our 18 yards, he acts like he's at the other end of the pitch. I think its brilliant! Risky f***er, but he's brazilian so who cares if he wants to flick it up do a player spin around and play a through ball.
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Re: Interesting read on Denilson...

Postby The Goosnargh Gooner » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:16 am

He's young and currently getting the experience he needs, while AW is trying to get the right balance in the team, which is not easy with so many injury's.
Denilson will improve as time goes on. With the transfer window open again, let's see who comes and go before knocking are own players.
He can only get better, and he is young.
We all have a bad days, which currently has been more than what we are use to,
but we do play good exciting football, but only for short spells of the time.
This is what AW is working on, but the players need to go that extra mile, which we are short on.
Given time, a few more expierence players we can get it right.
We will not win the league, but staying in Europe, and the chance of silverware from the cup games, it's still possible to turns things round.
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